Historic Trial Transcripts
Linda Kasabian: August 16, 1971 Testimony
LINDA KASABIAN
called as a witness by the People, testified as follows:
THE CLERK: Thank you.
Be seated; and would you state and spell your name, please?
THE WITNESS: Linda Kasabian, L-i-n-d-a; K-a-s-a-b-i-a-n.
THE COURT: Is that Miss or Mrs.?
THE WITNESS: Mrs.
THE COURT: Mrs. Kasabian, would you try to keep your voice up, please, so that the last juror could hear you?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: Thank you.
DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. BUGLIOSI:
Q. Linda, you are presently living in New Hampshire; is that correct?
A. Yes, that’s correct.
Q. And you have flown back here to testify at this trial?
A. That’s right.
Q. You are aware, Linda, that in the year 1969 you were indicted by the Los Angeles County Grand Jury along with Charles Manson, Charles Watson, Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkel, and Leslie Van Houten for the Tate-LaBianca murders; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And, Linda, did you testify for the prosecution during the previous trial of Charles Manson, Susan Atkins, Patricia Krenwinkel and Leslie Van Houten, for these seven murders?
A. Yes.
MR. BUBRICK: I object as immaterial.
MR. BUGLIOSI: It has been mentioned by Mr. Bubrick, I think—
THE COURT: All right, I have allowed the answer.
BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Prior to the trial, Linda, do you recall that your attorneys, Gary Fleischman and Ronald Goldman, entered into an agreement with the district attorney office that if you testified to everything you know about the Tate-LaBianca murders the district attorney’s office would request of the Court that the Court give you immunity from prosecution?
MR. BUBRICK: Object to that, your Honor, as being immaterial.
THE COURT: Overruled
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: And pursuant to that agreement during the last trial did Judge Charles Older grant you immunity from prosecution?
A. Yes.
Q. So there are no charges pending against you for these murders; correct?
A. Right.
Q. Linda, besides the benefits accruing to you under the immunity agreement, is there any other reason why you told everything you know or you knew during the last trial and why you are also going to testify during this trial, any other particular reason?
MR. KEITH: Object to that question on the grounds it is argumentative, calling for a conclusion, immaterial.
THE COURT: Sustained on that ground.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I believe there were about three or four objections, your Honor. There is a particular reason—
THE COURT: The question was compound, too.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Besides the immunity agreement, Linda, is there any other reason why you decided to tell what you know about these murders?
A. Yes, I just felt that the truth had to be known.
THE COURT: Keep your voice up, please.
THE WITNESS: I felt that the truth had to be known and told, and with or without immunity, I felt I had to tell it.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: So with or without immunity, you wanted to testify, take the witness stand and tell what happened on these two nights; is that correct?
A. Yes,
Q. I take it you know the defendant in this case, Charles Tex Watson?
A. Yes.
Q. How old are you, Linda?
A. 22.
Q. Can you talk a little more loudly?
MR. BUGLIOSI: is there a microphone in this courtroom your Honor?
THE COURT: No, we have no microphone.
MR. BUGLIOSI: It is rather difficult to hear.
Q. Try to speak up just a little more loudly, Linda.
A. 22.
Q. Okay; and where were you born?
A. Biddeford, Maine.
Q. Biddeford, Maine?
A. Right.
Q. On June 21, 1949?
A. Right.
Q. And are you presently married?
A. Yes.
Q. And your husband’s name is Bob?
A. Right.
Q. And Bob is back in New Hampshire now?
A. Right.
Q. When did you marry Bob?
A. September 20th of ’67.
Q. In Lance, Massachusetts?
A. Right.
Q. Do you have any children by your marriage?
A. Yes.
Q. Who are they?
A. Tanyan [Tanya] and Angel.
MR. BUBRICK: Sorry, I can’t hear.
THE COURT: We can’t hear, you just have to speak up, Mrs. Kasabian.
THE WITNESS: Tanyan [Tanya] and Angel.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Okay?
Q. And how old is Tanyan [Tanya]?
A. She is three and a half.
Q. How old is Angel?
A. He is a year and a half.
Q. Was Angel born while you were in custody on these charges?
A. Yes, he was.
Q. And Tanyan [Tanya] and Angel are now back in New Hampshire with your husband, Bob?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever separate from your husband, Bob?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. Well, the first time was in April of ’69—’69, yes.
Q. And where were you living at the time of the separation?
A. New Mexico.
Q. Taos, New Mexico?
A. Yes.
Q. T-a-o-s?
A. Yes.
Q. And where did you go after the separation?
A. To New Hampshire.
Q. To your mother’s home in New Hampshire?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you thereafter reconcile with Bob?
A. Yes.
Q. When was that?
A. June, around the end of June of ’69.
Q. June, 1969?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, how did this reconciliation come about?
A. I happened to be at my mother’s house one afternoon and he called on the telephone and told me to come to Los Angeles, that we were going to South America and he wanted me to be with him.
MR. BUBRICK: Your Honor, I am sorry I can’t hear it over here.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Can all members of the jury hear?
THE COURT: I don’t know what to do with her. We have asked her several times—
THE WITNESS: Sir, I am trying with all my might.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Her voice is naturally very soft, your Honor.
I am just wondering somehow—
THE COURT: We have no microphones in here.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Could one be brought in? Is there any problem, could we get a microphone, Mr. Clerk?
THE CLERK: It would take days.
THE COURT: If we go through channels.
MR. BUGLIOSI: If we see Mr. Hahn, maybe a couple of weeks from now.
THE COURT: Two weeks would be a short time, if you go through channels.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Linda, do your best to talk loudly, because these folks on the jury have to hear.
THE WITNESS: May I pull my chair up?
THE COURT: Surely; get as close as you can.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: When did Bob call you?
A. Around the end of June.
Q. June of 1969; and you were back in New Hampshire?
A. Right.
Q. So you flew out here to Los Angeles?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you start living with Bob at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you and he live?
A. In Topanga Canyon Lane near the beach.
Q. Near Malibu?
A. Yeah, sort of.
Q. Okay, and were you living at that time in a home, an apartment, a truck or what?
A. In a truck.
Q. Was this a converted truck, it had been converted into a—
A. Yes.
Q. —home, as it were?
A. Yes.
Q. And who else was living in this converted truck?
A. Charlie Melton and Jim and Julie Otterstraum [Otterstrom], Bob myself and Tanya.
Q. So there was your husband, Bob, Charles Melton, Jim and Julie—how do you spell the last name?
A. O-t-t-e-r-s-t-r-a-u-m—I’m not sure.
Q. Phonetically, that’s the way it is spelled; is that correct?
A. Um-hmm.
Q. And then, of course, Tanya was with you?
A. Right.
Q. Now, was this truck going to be taken to South America?
A. Yes.
Q. By the whole group?
A. Yes.
Q. And you intended to buy a boat there in South America?
A. That’s right.
Q. And travel around the world?
A. Right.
Q. Did things work out between you and your husband?
A. No.
Q. What happened?
A. I don’t know; just really didn’t seem to get it together, so far as harmony in our love; and he told me that he didn’t want me to go with him.
Q. Did you finally leave your husband?
A. Yes.
Q. On what date?
A. July the 4th.
Q. That is July the 4th, 1969; is that correct?
A. Right.
Q. What were the circumstances surrounding your leaving your husband?
A. I don’t quite understand.
Q. Well, how did you happen to leave on July the 4th; how did you happen to leave the truck?
What happened?
A. Well, he told me that morning that he didn’t really want me to go and it just so happened that a girl came by named Kathryn Share.
Q. Is she also known as Gypsy?
A. Yes, Gypsy.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, I have here a photograph previously marked People’s 29. May it be remarked People’s 28?
THE COURT: So marked.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Is this a photograph of Gypsy, Linda, People’s 28?
A. Yes.
Q. So Gypsy came to the converted truck?
A. Right.
Q. To visit whom?
A. Charlie Manson.
Q. And did you start to talk to Gypsy?
A. Yes, we struck up a conversation.
Q. Okay. Did Gypsy tell you anything about Charles Manson and Spahn Ranch?
A. Yes.
Q. What did she tell you?
A. Well, just that there was a family living out at Spahn Ranch and that Charlie was like a really beautiful man and I’d be more than accepted there; there were lots of children and everybody loved each other and just sounded like a place to go.
Q. So you decided to go along with Gypsy to Spahn Ranch?
A. Uh-huh, yeah.
Q. And you left that very day, July the 4th?
A. Right.
Q. And you had never been to Spahn Ranch before, I take it?
A. No.
Q. And you had never met Gypsy before?
A. No.
Q. Had you ever met any member of the family before?
A. No.
Q. When is the first time that you met the defendant Charles Watson?
A. That night.
Q. The evening of July the 4th, 1969?
A. Right.
Q. At the Spahn Ranch?
A. Right.
Q. And would you explain the circumstances under which you met him?
A. It was dark and Gypsy brought him over to me. We were outside. And I just remember that he put his arms around me and guided me into a room and we made love and then started talking.
THE COURT: I didn’t hear the last part.
(Record read by the reporter.)
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: After this one time did you ever have sexual intercourse with Mr. Watson again?
A. Yeah.
Q. How many times?
A. One time.
Q. A total of twice?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you notice that Mr. Watson had any difficulty at all having sexual intercourse with you?
MR. BUBRICK: I will object to the leading and suggestive questions.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Did Mr. Watson seen to have any difficulty having sexual intercourse with you?
A. No.
Q. Going back to this time where you met Mr. Watson on the evening of July the 4th, did you have a conversation with Mr. Watson at that time?
A. Yes.
Q. What did you say and what did he say?
A. I think he asked me where I had come from and what I was doing and I told him that, you know, the circumstances I was living with these people and we had planned to go to South America and we had lots of money and he suggested that I steal this money, which I said, “No, I couldn’t. They are my brothers and I love them and I couldn’t do that.”
And he said something about that the money was just there and it was for anybody to take. It wasn’t wrong to take it. The money was there for anybody.
Q. Now, when you were talking about this money, did this money belong to Charles Milton?
A. Well, he had inherited it, but it did belong to the people in the truck.
Q. How much money was it?
A. It started out at twenty thousand. I don’t know.
Q. So you told Mr. Watson that there was $20,000 in the truck?
A. Yes.
Q. You say Mr. Watson suggested that you take the money?
A. Yes.
Q. And you told him you didn’t want to because this was your brother?
A. Right.
Q. He told you what again?
A. Just that the money was there for anybody to take, that it wasn’t wrong.
Q. Did Mr. Watson then convince you to take the money?
MR. BUBRICK: I object to that.
THE COURT: Sustained.
MR. BUBRICK: May the jury be admonished to disregard that?
THE COURT: Yes.
Ladies and gentlemen, when I sustain an objection to a question like that please disregard the question entirely.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: After Mr. Watson told you this, did you change your mind about taking the money?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you in fact take the money?
A. Yes, I did.
Q. When was that?
A. The next morning.
Q. The next morning did you go back then to the truck?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you go alone?
A. No.
Q. Whom did you go with?
A. Gypsy and Mary Bruner and Tanya.
Q. Mary Bruner was a female member of the family?
A. Right.
Q. You went with her, Gypsy, and Tanya?
A. Yes.
Q. And you entered the truck?
A. Yes.
Q. How much money did you take?
A. Well, I took what was there, which later I found out was five thousand.
Q. What did you do with the five thousand dollars?
A. I don’t know—I took it back to the ranch and I gave it to somebody. I am not really sure who.
Q. You don’t know to whom you gave it?
A. No, not positive.
Q. Did you ever see any part of the money again?
A. No.
Q. You, of course, know Charles Manson.
A. Yes.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, I have here a photograph of a male Caucasian.
May it be marked People’s next in order? I believe it would be People’s 298.
THE COURT: That will be so marked.
MR. BUGLIOSI: May it be stipulated that this is a photograph of Charles Manson?
MR. KEITH: Yes.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: When was the first time you met Mr. Charles Manson?
A. Right after I stole the money. It was at the ranch.
THE COURT: I didn’t hear all of that. Right after you stole—
THE WITNESS: Right after I stole the money and we were at the ranch and after I had given the money to whoever it was that I gave it to. Gypsy and Mary directed me up in back of the ranch where I met Charlie.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Had you started to live at the ranch at that point?
A. Well, from the point that I first got there, yes.
Q. Okay.
Would you please relate your first meeting with Mr. Manson.
A. Well, he was working on this dune buggy and I think he had asked me why I came to the ranch and I told him because I was told that I would be welcome here and accepted and that I would be welcomed as a family and I don’t know, that is about all I can remember now.
Q. Did he say anything about your leg?
A. He didn’t say anything but I saw him look at my legs.
Q. Did he touch you at all?
A. Yes, he touched my legs. He felt my legs.
Q. Did he say anything?
A. Not that I recall.
Q. Where did you stay that night?
A. In the cave.
Q. On the ranch?
A. In back of the ranch.
Q. When was the next time you saw Mr. Manson?
A. The following night.
Q. What happened the following night between you and Mr. Manson, if anything?
A. He made love to me.
Q. Did he tell you anything about your father?
A. Yes. I remember he was talking to me and I didn’t understand a lot of what he said, but then he said something about, “You hate your father and you have a father hangup.”
And I was really astonished because I don’t have a father. I told him something, “Well, I don’t have a father and I do hate him,” something to that effect.
I was just really astonished that he said something like this that was sort of a secret within myself.
Q. You told him that you did hate your father?
A. I think so, something to that effect. I’m not positive right now.
Q. Did you become a member of the family?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. And was Charles Manson the head of the family?
A. Yes.
Q. How many people were in the family?
A. Oh, I don’t know, 20 or 30 people.
Q. It would very between 20 and 30?
A. Yes.
Q. Were most of the members of the family girls?
A. Yes.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I have here an aerial photograph, your Honor, marked People’s 29 before. May it be remarked People’s 29?
THE COURT: It may be so marked.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you People’s 29 for identification, Linda.
What is shown in that photograph?
A. Well, the ranch, the main part of the ranch.
Q. Okay.
Does this appear to be an aerial photograph of Spahn Ranch?
A. Yeah.
Q. This is where you lived with the family; is that correct?
A. Right.
Q. Would the family normally sleep on the ranch in these buildings here?
A. Usually scattered.
Q. You would sleep in various places at the ranch?
A. Yes.
Q. Was there a home behind the ranch, or building behind the ranch about a quarter of a mile down the road?
A. Not behind. It was sort of—I think I can show you on the picture.
Q. Could you point it out here? Do you see it?
A. The road is somewhere around here, sort of went this way to a house. There wasn’t really—to me this is behind the ranch, sort of like diagonal, would you say?
Q. So there was a house down the road then?
A. Yes.
Q. Which was on the property of Spahn Ranch?
A. Yes.
Q. And the family would live in that house now and then?
A. Yes.
Q. And you would also live in these various homes here shown in this photograph?
A. Yes.
Q. And there was a trailer there at Spahn Ranch?
A. Yes.
Q. Did any of the girls or men sleep in the trailer at night?
A. Yes.
Q. Did male visitors ever come to the ranch?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Manson ever tell you girls to do anything with them?
A. Well, we were always trying to get people to join the ranch, especially men. He would always tell us to make love to them and try to get them to stay, which usually never happened.
Q. Did you girls in fact make love with various male visitors that came to the ranch for the purpose of getting them to join the family?
A. Yes.
Q. And did it frequently happen that they would not join the family?
A. Right.
Q. What work did the girls do at the ranch?
A. Well, they would help out with, you know, the guys so far as fixing dune buggies and things like that, taking care of children, cooking, housework, and things like that.
Q. What about the men in the family? What did they do?
A. Most of them worked on dune buggies.
Q. Other than Mr. Manson and Mr. Watson, what other men were there in the family?
A. There was Clem and Bruce and Danny DeCarlo. That is all I can remember at the moment.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, I have here another photograph of a male Caucasian. May it be marked People’s—let me withdraw that it was previously marked People’s 46. May it be remarked People’s 46?
THE COURT: It may be so marked.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you People’s 46 for identification. Is this the Clem about whom you referred?
A. Yes.
MR. BUGLIOSI: May it be stipulated that this is a photograph of Steve Grogan, also known as Clem? So stipulated?
MR. KEITH: Yes.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I have here another photograph previously marked People’s 71. May it be remarked People’s 71, your Honor?
THE COURT: It may be so marked.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you People’s 71. Do you know who is shown in that photograph?
A. Yes, Bruce.
Q. That is Bruce Davis?
A. Yes.
Q. The person to whom you have been referring?
A. Yes.
Q. How did you get your food in the family? How did you survive?
A. Used to go on what they call garbage runs.
Q. What is a garbage run?
A. Go behind supermarkets and into the big garbage cans and take food.
We had a couple of connections where we went to old fruit stands and got fruit, old fruit and vegetables.
Q. Then would you take the food back to the ranch and prepare it?
A. Right.
Q. And how did you get money to buy other things that you needed at the ranch?
A. I don’t know. We used to have credit cards.
Q. How would you get these credit cards?
A. Either they were just there or somebody would steal them.
Q. Did you ever steal any credit card?
A. Yes.
Q. And did you go out with someone?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was that?
A. With Sadie.
Q. Approximately when was this?
A. Around the end of July.
THE COURT: I didn’t hear the name with whom you went.
THE WITNESS: Sadie.
THE COURT: Sadie?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: You say Sadie. You mean Susan Atkins?
A. Yes.
Q. When did you go out with her?
A. About the end of July, I guess. I don’t know the date.
Q. The end of July 1969?
A. Yes.
Q. And you stole some credit cards with her?
A. Yes.
Q. Where did you get the credit cards?
A. Out of cars.
Q. You brought them back to the ranch?
THE COURT: Out of where?
THE WITNESS: Out of cars.
THE COURT: Automobiles?
THE WITNESS: Cars, yes.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, I have a photograph of a female Caucasian. May it be marked People’s 299 for identification?
THE COURT: It may be so marked.
MR. BUGLIOSI: May it be stipulated that this is a photograph of Susan Atkins, also known as Sadie?
MR. KEITH: Yes.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Showing you People’s 299, does that appear to be a photograph of Susan Atkins, Linda?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the family, other than going into town on these garbage runs, would they go into town otherwise for various reasons?
A. Yes.
Q. How would you normally get into town?
A. By car.
Q. Did you ever hitch-hike?
A. Yes.
Q. When you went in by car, did Mr. Manson give any instructions with respect to who should drive the car into town?
A. There was this one certain car that was used and he said that only people with driver’s licenses were allowed to use it.
Q. To your knowledge who had driver’s licenses in the family?
A. I had one and Mary Bruner had one. That is all I know.
Q. So to your knowledge only you and Mary Bruner had driver’s licenses; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And Mr. Manson said that when any member of the family went into town only those with driver’s licenses should drive; is that correct?
A. Right.
Q. Was it the rule in the family, to your knowledge, Linda, that the girls in the family would do whatever the men told them to do?
A. Yes.
Q. So you girls were just there to serve the men; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And you did what they told you to do without question; is that correct?
A. Right.
Q. I take it you must have had discussions with Mr. Manson about various things.
A. Sure, yes.
Q. Did Mr. Manson ever say anything to you about right and wrong?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he tell you?
A. That there is no right or wrong. Everything is right. Everything is all right.
THE COURT: What?
THE WITNESS: That there is no right or wrong, that everything is just all right.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Did he say anything to you about sense or no sense or things like that?
A. Yes. He said, “No sense makes sense.”
Q. “No sense makes sense”?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he say anything about how not to get caught if you are doing something wrong?
A. Yes, it was sort of like a little tune kind of thing, about “You won’t get caught if you don’t get thought in your head.”
THE COURT: We didn’t hear it, either.
“You won’t get caught if you don’t get thought in your head”?
THE WITNESS: “You won’t get caught if you don’t have thoughts in your head.”
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: How many children were there at the ranch?
A. There was Tanya and Zozo and Pooh-Bear, three.
Q. Tanya was your child?
A. Yes.
Q. And you say Zozo—
A. Yes.
Q. Was Zozo Sadie’s child?
A. Yes.
Q. That is Susan Atkins, right?
A. Right.
Q. And Pooh-Bear?
A. Yes.
Q. Who was Pooh-Bear?
A. Mary Bruner’s.
Q. Mary Bruner’s child was Pooh-Bear?
A. Yes.
THE COURT: How do you spell Pooh-Bear?
THE WITNESS: She spells it P-o-o-h B-e-a-r.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: How old was Pooh-Bear?
A. About the same age as Tanya.
Q. What about Zozo?
A. I don’t know, He was awfully small. I remember being told he was premature, but I think he was about 10 months old, I’m not sure.
Q. Who would take care of these three children?
A. Everybody sort of took turns.
Q. Would it be the girls, though?
A. Oh, yes, the girls.
Q. Did Manson ever say anything about protecting the children from anyone?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
A. Well, about the black people, they were supposed to keep the children out of sight during the day, in front of the ranch; we were supposed to keep them out of sight.
Q. Would black people ever come to the ranch?
A. Yes, on one occasion I remember.
Q. And do you know for what purpose they came to the ranch?
A. To ride horses.
Q. George Spahn was the owner of that ranch?
A. To my knowledge, yeah.
Q. He was an elderly fellow, in his eighties?
A. Yes.
Q. He was almost blind?
A. Yes.
Q. And one of the businesses of the ranch was to rent horses?
A. Right.
Q. There were many horses on the ranch?
A. Yes.
Q. You say you saw some black people come to the ranch to rent horses?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Manson ever tell you why he thought that the black people were coming to the ranch?
A. Yeah, to see the layout of the ranch; something about he knew they had binoculars and they were watching from up in the hills.
THE COURT: He knew what?
THE WITNESS: Binoculars, and were watching—
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: And the black people were watching the members of the family?
A. I don’t know the members of the family, but watching and looking at the layout of the ranch.
Q. You have heard of the term helter-skelter, of course?
A. Yeah.
Q. And did Manson, in very brief form, did he ever tell you what helter-skelter meant?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
A. That it was a revolution between blacks and white and how black was going to take over and kill white.
Q. Did you ever see the words “helter-skelter” written anywhere at Spahn Ranch?
A. Yes.
Q. Where?
A. On a jug in the parachute room, a black jug.
Q. There was a parachute room at Spahn Ranch?
A. Um-hmm.
Q. There was a jug inside—
A. Not inside the room; outside of the room, on the porch.
Q. There was some writing on the jug?
A. Yes.
Q. What was the writing?
A. “Donation for helter-skelter.”
Q. Did Mr. Manson ever speak to you about the unity of the black man as opposed to the white man?
A. Yes.
Q. What did he say?
A. Well, that a black man was much more together and much more aware than white men.
Q. Did he say anything about wanting to do something for the white man?
A. Well, he wanted to get white men together.
Q. Like the black man?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he say he had a way to bring the white men together?
A. Yeah, he said he had a way, his way was the only way but he didn’t say what his way was.
Q. You, of course, saw Mr. Manson tell other members of the family to do things for him; is that correct?
A. Yeah.
Q. And you never saw anyone instruct or tell him to do anything?
A. No.
Q. And the girls in the family used to idolize Charlie?
A. Yes.
Q. When I say “Charlie” I mean Charles Manson, now.
A. Yes.
Q. Incidentally, you know that Mr. Watson’s first name is Charles, also, is that right?
A. I guest so.
Q. Charles Watson.
A. Yes.
Q. But you refer to him as “Tex”; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. So whenever you say “Charlie” in the future, you are talking about Manson?
A. Yes.
Q. Looking at Mr. Watson now, do you notice any different about him now than he was when you saw him out at Spahn Ranch in July and August of 1969?
A. I can see his eyes; his hair has been cut.
THE COURT: You can see his eyes, and what else did you say?
THE WITNESS: His hair has been cut.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: What about his eyes?
A. I can see them. Before, his hair was down here and you could never really see them.
Q. Do you notice anything else different about him?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Would the Court have Mr. Watson stand up, your Honor?
THE COURT: Please stand up.
(Defendant stands.)
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Does he seem to weigh the same as he did then?
A. I don’t know. He was skinny then, he looks skinny now.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Would the Court have Mr. Watson approach Mrs. Kasabian, your Honor, so she could—
MR. BUBRICK: She doesn’t indicate any difficulty seeing him.
THE COURT: Do you have any trouble seeing him?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: Will you stand up there, Mr. Watson, please, behind your counsel; and you may step off the bench if you care to and get in closer if you need to see him any closer.
THE WITNESS: Yeah, he is a lot skinnier. His mouth is open and his tongue is sticking out.
THE COURT: What did you last say?
THE WITNESS: His mouth is open a lot.
THE COURT: And he is skinnier than he was?
THE WITNESS: A lot skinnier.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: So in July and August of 1969, Mr. Watson was heavier than he is now?
A. Yes.
Q. He is a lot skinnier now?
A. Yes.
Q. And you also noticed that his mouth is open now?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever see Tex walking around the ranch with his mouth open in July or August of 1969?
A. I didn’t understand—
Q. Did you ever see him walk around in July or August on Spahn Ranch with his mouth open like this, other than when he was talking, of course?
A. No.
Q. But you notice that he has his mouth open now? Is that correct?
A. Yes, more than then.
Q. During the time that you knew Tex, how did you get along with him?
A. Fine.
Q. Did you ever have any arguments with Mr. Watson?
A. No.
Q. To your knowledge, did he have anything against you?
A. No.
Q. You indicated earlier that it was the rule in the family that the girls would serve the men without question; is that correct?
A. Excuse me?
Q. You indicated earlier that the rule or the policy in the family was that the girls in the family would serve the men, they would obey the men; is that correct?
A. Right.
Q. Did you ever see Mr. Watson tell any of the girls in the family to do anything?
A. Sure.
Q. Like what?
A. I don’t know—if he’s working on his Dune Buggy, ask them to go get coffee, or clean something, or things to that matter.
Q. And did you see this many times?
A. Yeah, yeah.
Q. So on many occasions you saw Mr. Watson tell girls in the family to do things for him; is that correct?
MR. KEITH: Your Honor—
MR. BUBRICK: Your Honor, object—
MR. KEITH: He’s leading.
MR. BUGLIOSI: That’s a repeat of what she has already said.
MR. BUBRICK: So why repeat it?
MR. BUGLIOSI: It is hard to hear; it is just for clarification.
THE COURT: Objection sustained.
Do not lead your witness; do not recapitulate what the witness says, please.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Did you ever see any girl in the family tell Mr. Watson to do anything?
A. I don’t think so, no.
THE COURT: Suppose we have our recess at this time.
Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we will take our afternoon recess at this time.
Do not form or express any opinion in this case; do not discuss it among yourselves or with anybody else and please keep your minds open.
Gentlemen, will you please come into chambers.
(Recess.)
THE COURT: People against Watson. Let the record show all jurors and all counsel and the defendant are present.
Now, you try to speak directly into that for us, please.
THE WITNESS: Directly? Like that?
THE COURT: It doesn’t help very much. Wait a minute. Will you state your name, please, again for us?
THE WITNESS: Linda Kasabian.
THE COURT: Is that better? All right. Fine.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Linda, did Tex seem to get along well with the girls in the family?
A. Yeah, except for one incident that I saw.
Q. What incident was this?
A. There was this girl Kathryn Gillis [Catherine Gillies]—I know her as Kathy [Cathy].
Q. Was she a member of the family?
A. Yes. She went to the—not the ranch, she left the ranch one morning and went to the beach and she came back in the afternoon and we were all in the kitchen and the girls were mad but they didn’t say anything, but Tex was there and he told her if she ever left again to ask first and he said that something like her life meant nothing to him and that next time he would kill her.
Q. Was Manson present during this incident?
A. No.
Q. Approximately when did this incident take place?
A. Sometime in July. I don’t really know when.
Q. July of 1969?
A. Yeah.
Q. Linda, on the date August the 8th, 1969, were you still living at Spahn Ranch?
A. Yes.
Q. At any time during the day do you recall Mr. Manson saying anything about helter-skelter?
A. Yeah. We were sitting in front of the bunk room and he said something about now is the time for helter-skelter, something to that effect.
Q. Did he say anything about being up at Big Sur?
A. Oh, he had just come back from Big Sur, yes; and he said the people up there just weren’t together and they wouldn’t go on his trip.
Q. So then he said, “Now’s the time for halter skelter”?
A. Yes.
Q. And were you at Spahn Ranch on the evening of August the 8th, 1969?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened that evening?
A. Well, we all had dinner in the saloon.
THE COURT: Excuse me just a minute.
Can you hold up just a minute, please? We seem to get a feedback here.
Maybe you can call Mr. Hahn again.
Repeat your name for us.
THE WITNESS: Linda Kasabian.
THE COURT: Does that improve any?
THE JURORS; Yes.
THE COURT: Fine.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: You say you had dinner that night, August the 8th, at the saloon with the family; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. About what time did you have dinner?
A. I don’t know, about the same time we had it every night, after dark.
Q. Okay, and was Manson present during the dinner?
A. Yes.
Q. Was Tex present?
A. Yes.
Q. The whole family was present?
A. Yes.
Q. About 20, 25, 30 people?
A. Yeah.
Q. All right, what happened after dinner?
A. Well, I remember there was a bunch of us sitting out in front of the kitchen and Charlie came over to me and pulled me aside and told me to get a change of clothing and a knife and my driver’s license, and I did.
I went into the house and I asked Brenda about my driver’s license.
Q. You say Brenda; you mean Brenda McCann?
A. Yes; and we both looked, Squeaky was there, too. We couldn’t find it and we kept looking—I went to a box and I got some clothes, a denim skirt and a lavender sweater; and then I left and I went through the side way into the saloon from the bathroom and looked for a knife that I had seen earlier and it wasn’t there.
So I ran out and I went into the kitchen and Larry was there and I asked him if he had a knife and he did and he gave me one.
Q. Before you go any further, Linda—
MR. BUGLIOSI: I have here a photograph, your Honor, previously marked People’s 76.
May it be remarked People’s 76?
THE COURT: Exhibit 76.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Showing you People’s 76, you mentioned a girl named Squeaky. Is that the girl farthest to the right in this photograph?
A. Yes.
Q. And there is a mark saying “Squeaky”; is that correct?
A. Right.
Q. Now, you mentioned a man named Larry Jones—
MR. BUGLIOSI: I have here a photograph previously marked People’s 83.
May it be marked People’s 83?
THE COURT: So marked.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Is that a photograph of—
MR. BUBRICK: There was a reference to “Larry”; I didn’t realize we had a last name to it.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I’m sorry.
Q. Is this the Larry you referred to?
A. Yes.
MR. BUGLIOSI: May it be stipulated that this is Larry Jones?
MR. KEITH: I don’t know Larry Jones from anybody else.
THE COURT: Ask her. Do you know his last name?
THE WITNESS: I didn’t at the time, but now I do.
THE COURT: When did you learn it? Just now?
THE WITNESS: No, the last trial, before the last trial.
THE COURT: All right. Show her the photograph again, 83.
MR. BUBRICK: 76.
MR. BUGLIOSI: No; this one is 83.
THE COURT: Squeaky is 76. Who is that a photograph of?
THE WITNESS: That is Larry.
THE COURT: Do you know his last name?
THE WITNESS: Not at the time, no.
THE COURT: Photo of Larry.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: What happened next, Linda?
A. Let’s see, Larry gave me the knife and I started walking away from the kitchen and then next Charlie and Brenda were at the end of the board walking into the kitchen and Brenda gave me the driver’s license and Charlie just said “Go with Tex and do whatever he tells you to do.”
And from there I proceeded to get into the car, which was parked right there and we drove off—started to drive off.
Q. You say you got into a car. Do you know whose car this was?
A. Yes, Johnny Swartz.
Q. He was a ranch hand at Spahn Ranch?
A. Yes.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, I have here a photograph previously marked People’s 38. May it be remarked People’s 38?
THE COURT: It may be so marked.
BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you People’s 38 for identification. Do you know what is shown in that photograph?
A. Yes. It looks like Johnny’s car.
Q. That is the car you got into?
A. Yes.
Q. Where was the car parked on the ranch?
A. Right in front of the kitchen.
Q. In the parking area?
A. Yes.
Q. You got your knife, change of clothing, a driver’s license, and you went to Johnny Swartz’ car?
A. Right.
Q. Was anyone in the. car at the time you went to the car?
A. Yes. I think Sadie and Katie were.
THE COURT: Who?
THE WITNESS: Sadie and Katie.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: When you say Sadie, you mean Susan Atkins?
A. Yes.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I have here another photograph, your Honor of a female Caucasian. May it be marked 300 for identification?
THE COURT: 300. It may be so marked.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you People’s 300 for identification. Who is shown in that photograph?
A. That is Katie.
Q. Patricia Krenwinkel?
A. Yes,
Q. So Patricia Krenwinkel, also known as Katie and Susan Atkins, known as Sadie, were already in Johnny Swartz’ car?
A. Yes,
Q. Where was Tex?
A. He was standing on the driver’s side talking with Charlie.
Q. Tex was outside the car?
A. Yes.
Q. Talking to Charlie?
A. Yes.
Q. This knife that Larry gave you, was it unusual at all?
A. It had tape around it, around the handle.
Q. Then, Tex eventually got into the car?
A. Yes.
Q. What is the next thing that happened?
A. We started to drive away and then Charlie stopped us. Then he came over to the passenger’s side of the car and he said something about “Leave a sign. You girls know what I mean. Something witchy, something like that.”
THE COURT: Will you speak directly into the microphone. Maybe that will help us.
THE WITNESS: Did you hear what I said?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Yes.
THE COURT: Leave a sign.
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Something witchy?
A. Yes, something like, “you girls know what I mean, something witchy.”
Q. Now, you were dressed in dark clothing at the time?
A. Yes.
Q. How about Katie and Sadie, how were they dressed?
A. Yes, they were in dark clothes also.
Q. What about Tex?
A. Him too.
Q. All four of you were then dressed in dark clothing?
A. Yes.
Q. Top and bottom?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you have any shoes or sandals on?
A. No, I didn’t have shoes on.
Q. You were barefooted?
A. Yes.
Q. What about Sadie and Katie?
A. I don’t think they had shoes, either.
Q. What about Tex?
A. Yes, I think he wore shoes.
Q. And you also had a change of clothing with you?
A. Yes.
Q. What about Tex, Sadie and Katie, did they also have a change of clothing?
A. Yes.
Q. So there were four sets of changes of clothing in the car?
A. Right.
Q. Then, after Charlie made that statement about leaving something witchy to the girls, Tex drove off?
A. Yes.
Q. Manson saw you off?
A. Yes.
Q. Was anyone with Manson as the car pulled out of the parking lot at Spahn Ranch?
A. No.
Q. Did you know what you and the others were going to do, Linda, when you drove off?
A. I just had a feeling that we might be going someplace to steal something.
Q. Did you have any idea that you were going to the Tate residence to kill anyone?
A. No.
Q. Did you ask Tex, Sadie, or Katie, what was going to happen?
A. No.
Q. Was there any particular reason why you did not ask them?
A. One of the first things that was programmed in to me, as they used to call it, that you never ask why, so I never asked.
Q. So you thought you were going to go to someplace and steal?
A. Yes.
Q. Were there any knives or guns in the car?
A. Yes.
Q. How many guns?
A. One.
Q. Do you know what type of a gun this was?
A. No, I don’t know the name of it.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, I have here a revolver, Serial No. 1902708, appears to be a high standard .22 caliber Buntline revolver, previously marked People’s 40. May it be remarked People’s 40?
THE COURT: It may be so marked.
Q. I show you People’s 40 for identification, Linda.
Prior to the last trial had you ever seen this revolver?
A. Yes.
Q. Was this the revolver that was in the car?
A. It sure looks like it.
THE COURT: Mr. Bugliosi, will you show that gun to the bailiff, please?
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Other than that revolver, People’s 40, was there any other gun in the car?
A. None that I saw.
Q. How many knives were in the car?
A. Three.
Q. One was the knife that you had; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And there were two other knives in the car?
A. Yes.
Q. And who had those two knives?
A. Sadie and Katie.
Q. Did you see any knife on Tex’s person?
A. No.
Q. Would you describe these three knives?
A. One was a knife that I had, with the black taped handle; and one was a knife that I had brought with me when I first came into the ranch, which was a kitchen buck knife, the kind of thing that folded into itself; and the third knife was similar to the one that I brought in—I can’t really remember it.
Q. The third knife was what?
A. Similar to the one that I had brought with me.
Q. That night?
A. No, not that night.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I seem to have a buck knife marked People’s 39 previously for identification.
May it be remarked People’s 39?
THE COURT: 39?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Yes.
THE COURT: So marked.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you People’s 39 for identification.
Have you ever seen that buck knife before?
A. Yes, it looks like my knife.
Q. Is this the knife that you brought to Spahn Ranch with you?
A. Yes.
Q. This was part of your personal property?
A. Yes.
Q. And you turned over your personal property to the family once you joined the family?
A. Yes.
Q. So this knife was in the car that night?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. This was not on your person?
A. No.
Q. Who had this knife?
A. I think Sadie did.
Q. And in addition to this knife there was one knife that you brought along with you and another knife?
A. Right.
Q. Do you know the approximate dimensions of the blades of these other two knives?
A. I don’t know.
Q. Talking about the blade, now, I am not talking about the length of the whole knife, just the blade.
A. Probably about like that.
THE COURT: Indicating about five inches; is that correct?
MR. BUGLIOSI: Five, six, closer to six, your Honor.
THE COURT: Five to six.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: What about the thickness of the blade in relation to a kitchen knife; how thick was it?
A. Probably about three times as thick, yeah.
Q. What about the width of the blade on those two knives—talking about the width, now, right.
A. I guess about an inch, something like that.
Q. Did you ever see Tex carry a knife on his person at Spahn Ranch?
A. Yeah.
Q. As you were driving in the car Tex was driving the car, did Tex tell you to do anything with the three knives and that revolver?
A. Yeah, he told me to wrap them up, which I did.
Q. What did you wrap them up in?
A. I’m not really positive right now, I just know I wrapped them up; I’m not sure in what, though.
Q. Did Mr. Watson tell you to do anything in addition to wrapping the knives and the revolver up?
A. Yeah, he said that something like if we got stopped by the police to throw them out the window, which never happened.
Q. Did Tex drive all the way to your ultimate destination?
A. Excuse me?
Q. Did Tex do all the driving?
A. There?
Q. Yes.
A. Yes.
Q. Did you drive at all?
A. Only back, yes.
Q. But not to the place?
A. No.
Q. Tex is the only one that drove; is that right?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he take surface streets or a freeway or what?
A. Seems to me we were on a freeway for a while; then we were onto streets.
Q. Okay.
Where did you eventually drive to?
A. A gate on top of a hill.
Q. How long did it take you to get to the place from Spahn Ranch?
A. I don’t know. Not too long, I guess, but I don’t know the time.
Q. Could you give us any idea? Did it take five minutes, four hours, an hour, what?
A. Probably around an hour, I guess.
Q. Okay, about what time did you arrive at the gate at the top of the hill, approximately?
A. Time? I don’t know.
Q. Well, was it 3:00 in the morning, midnight, eleven—
A. It was probably around midnight.
Q. Would you tell the Judge and the jury, Linda, what happened after you arrived at this gate at the top of the hill?
A. Well, Tex turned around and parked beside a telephone pole with—I don’t know what you call it—a piece of metal sticking out, coming up and out—and let me see, he got out of the car; and then all I remember is seeing wires falling down. Then he got back in the car, drove to the bottom of the hill—
Q. Now, let’s slow down a little bit.
Was this a telephone pole that Tex stopped his car at?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Tex climb the telephone pole?
A. I guess so, yeah.
Q. While Tex was out of the car did you, Sadie and Katie stay in the car?
A. Yes.
Q. So he was the only one that was out of the car?
A. Yes.
Q. Where were you in relation to the telephone pole?
A. I was on the passenger side.
Q. And the passenger side of the car was right next to the telephone pole?
A. Right.
Q. Did you see Tex cut any telephone wires?
A. I didn’t see him actually cut them, but I saw the wires fall.
Q. To the ground?
A. Yes.
Q. How many wires fell to the ground?
A. I didn’t count them. A few.
Q. Now, you spoke about a metal object extending out.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, I have here a photograph previously marked People’s 73. May it be remarked People’s 73?
THE COURT: It may be so marked.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you People’s 73 for identification.
What is shown in that photograph, Linda?
A. The telephone pole and that metal object.
Q. Okay; and this is where Tex parked the car?
A. Yes.
Q. And you say after these telephone wires fell to the ground you drove back down where?
A. To the bottom of the hill.
Q. You parked the car at the bottom of the hill?
A. Yes.
Q. All right. What is the next thing that happened?
A. We all got out of the car and started walking up, up the hill that we had just driven down from.
Q. Okay. Did Tex take anything out of the car with him?
A. Well, I just remember we were walking up, that he had rope around his shoulders.
Q. Do you know what type of rope this was?
A. Type?
Q. Yes, what color was it, for instance?
A. I don’t know. I just remember he had rope around his shoulder.
Q. You don’t know the dimensions of the rope—was it fairly long, the rope?
A. I don’t know; it was wound around his shoulder.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, I have here some rope previously marked. People’s 41 for identification. May it be remarked People’s 41.
THE COURT: It may be so marked.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I realize, Linda, there is no way you could tell whether this was the exact rope; but tell me this, does this rope resemble the type of rope that Tex had over his shoulders, or does it look completely different?
A. I don’t know. I just know he had rope around his shoulder.
Q. You don’t know whether this rope resembles that rope?
A. No.
Q. Did you see any rope in the car as you were driving to the Tate residence?
A. I don’t think so.
Q. So, then, all four of you started advancing up the driveway again towards the gate?
A. Right.
Q. Now, en route to the Tate residence did Tex tell you, Sadie and Katie anything about what to do once you got there?
A. While we were walking—
Q. I’m sorry, as you were driving that night towards the residence, inside the car, did Tex say anything to you, Sadie and Katie?
A. Yeah, when we first left, he said that—something about he’d been to this house before and he knew the layout of the house and just to do whatever he told us to do.
Q. So then you approached the gate of the residence; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. What is the next thing that happened?
A. Let’s see, we climbed up a small embankment, climbed through some barbed wire which was part of a fence, part of the gate.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, I have another photograph previously marked 86 for identification. May it be remarked People’s 86 for identification?
THE COURT: So marked.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Looking at People’s 86, Linda, do you recall my showing you this photograph during the last trial?
A. Yes.
Q. And there is a telephone pole here on the left and there is an X and some writing “where Tex parked car”; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. And over to the right I notice a gate and there is an embankment and there is an arrow and some writing “path defendants took in going over fence.” Is that correct?
A. Yes, that is correct.
Q. So this is the path you took then in going over the front gate of the Tate residence?
A. Yes.
Q. As indicated by these arrows here and the writing; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Once you, Tex, Katie and Sadie went over the front gate of the Tate residence, what is the next thing that happened?
A. Almost immediately after we all got through the fence some headlights started, coming toward us and Tex sort of said, you know, “Get down,” which we did and the car came right up to us and Tex had a gun in his hand and there was a man in the car and I saw his face, he wore glasses, and he said something about, “Please don’t hurt me. I won’t say anything.” And Tex just shot him in the head four times.
Q. Where were you in relation to this car?
A. Right there, right—the car was right here and I was five feet from it or something.
Q. Was the driver of the car fairly close to you?
A. Yeah.
Q. You were on the driver’s side of the car then?
A. Yes.
Q. Just a couple of feet away?
A. Yes.
Q. And you saw Tex shoot this man?
A. Yes.
THE COURT: I think she said five feet away; is that right?
THE WITNESS: I don’t know the exact feet.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I think I said a few feet away.
Q. What is the next thing that happened, Linda?
A. The next thing I know Tex told me to walk behind the house.
Q. Well, did Tex do anything to this car after he shot the man?
A. Yeah, I think, he did. I think he moved it. I am not sure. I can’t quite see it.
Q. Do you think he moved the car?
A. I think so, yes.
Q. In the direction of the house?
A. I think he moved it backwards, I’m not sure.
Q. Backwards would be in the direction of the house; is that correct?
A. Yeah.
Q. Because the car was on its way—
A. Out from.
Q. —leaving the premises.
A. Yes.
Q. Was the engine to the car on at the time that Tex shot this man?
A. Yes, it was.
Q. Did Tex do anything to the ignition before he pushed the car?
A. He turned it off.
Q. What is the next thing that happened?
A. I remember we started walking towards the house.
Q. All four of you?
A. I guess so. I can’t account for Sadie and Katie at this point, I don’t know, and I just remember him telling me to go in back and to look for open doors and windows.
Q. Who told you that?
A. Tex.
THE COURT: To do what?
THE WITNESS: To look for open doors and windows and I did. I went behind the house and I don’t really remember lifting with my hands to open the doors and windows and I came around front and Tex was standing at a window with a screen and he cut this screen.
I remember I could see inside and I saw flowers on the dining room table and I think he told me to go wait by the car, which I did.
The next thing I know I was waiting by that car where the man was shot.
Q. Did he tell you to do anything by the car?
A. He might have told me just to stay there and listen, but I don’t know. I don’t really remember that.
Q. Now, what car are you referring to? Are you referring to the car that you came to the residence in or the car where the man was shot?
A. The car where the man was shot.
Q. You say Tex cut a screen on a window. Did he cut it up and down or—
A. No.
Q. —sideways?
A. He cut it across.
Q. Horizontally then?
A. Yes.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I have here a photograph, your Honor, previously marked People’s 26—I believe this has already been marked at this trial I show you People’s Exhibit 26, Linda. You will notice there is a marking, there is a screen that is off the window and there is a horizontal red line. It says “Slit in screen.”
Q. Is this approximately where Tex cut the screen.
A. Yes.
Q. And you realize this was marked during the previous trial?
A. Yes.
Q. Does the marking on the photograph appear to be correct at this time?
A. Yeah, I think so.
Q. Showing you People’s 4 for identification, does this appear to be a photograph of the residence where this happened?
A. Yes.
Q. And you will notice that the second window to the right of the front door, the window is open and there is a screen on the ground. Do you see that?
A. Yes.
Q. And this screen does it appear to be the same screen that is shown in People’s 26 for identification?
A. Yes.
Q. So then you went down to the car. What is the next thing that happened?
A. I remember I squatted down and I just was waiting and then Katie came to me and she asked me for her knife—for my knife and I gave it to her. She told me to wait there and listen for sounds and I did.
She went back towards the house and time passed by, I don’t know how long, and then I started hearing screams and then I started running towards the house.
Q. These were screams coming from the direction of the house?
A. Yes.
Q. And were these loud screams?
A. Yes.
Q. Were they constant screams?
A. Yes.
Q. Did they appear to be the screams of men and women?
A. Just screams of people.
Q. How long did they scream?
A. I don’t know how long.
Q. Do you know what they were screaming?
A. Just like I have never heard. I don’t know—pleading, I don’t—
Q. Pleading for their lives?
A. Screams, yes.
MR. BUBRICK: Oh, I object to that.
THE COURT: The objection to that is sustained.
MR. BUGLIOSI:Q. They were pleading—
THE COURT: Just a moment. The jury will disregard the last question asked by counsel.
Q. They were pleading, Linda?
A. Excuse me?
Q. These screens were pleading screams?
A. They were just screams—pleading screams, yes.
THE COURT: What do you mean by pleading screams?
THE WITNESS: Just—I don’t know how to describe it—I have never heard screams before like that, and I don’t know—I don’t know.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: What is the next thing that happened, Linda?
A. I ran towards the house.
Q. Why did you run towards the house?
A. I don’t know. I guess—I don’t know.
Q. What is the next thing that happened when you ran towards the house?
A. A man came out of the front door and he was staggering and he had blood all over his face and he looked at me and I looked at him. He was leaning against the pole and he fell.
Q. To his left or to his right?
A. Towards me—to my right.
Q. To your right, which would be to his left?
A. Yeah.
Q. What is the next thing that happened?
A. Sadie came running out and I said to her, I said, “Sadie, please, make him stop”; I said, “People are coming.”
Q. Were people, in fact, coming?
A. No, I don’t think so.
Q. Why did you tell Sadie that?
A. I don’t know. I was afraid; I just wanted her to stop; and she said something about that she left her knife in the house, something like that, and then the next thing I knew, the man was right there that had fallen down and Tex was right there and he was hitting him over the head and just kept stabbing him and stabbing him and stabbing him to the ground; and Katie was in the background chasing a woman. She had a knife and I just turned and I ran back to the bottom of the hill to the car, and I laid on the ground.
Q. Going back just a moment, Linda, you say Tex was hitting this man over the head?
A. What?
Q. You say Tex was hitting this man over the head?
A. Yes.
Q. Do you know what he was hitting him with?
A. I don’t know. It looked like a gun, but I don’t know.
Q. And you also say that Tex stabbed the man.
A. Yes.
Q. Where was the man when Tex was stabbing him; where was he in relation to the house?
A. On the front of the house.
Q. When he first came out, when this man first came out the front door, you say he fell down to his left—
A. Yes.
Q. —into some bushes?
A. Yes.
Q. Right outside the front door?
A. Yes.
Q. Did he ever get up from that position?
A. I don’t remember seeing him get up.
Q. When Tex was stabbing this man, were they right outside the front door, right near the front door?
A. No, they were—I was away from the front door on the sidewalk and they were this way to me, and the front door was here.
THE COURT: You have indicated to your left; they were to your left?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Let’s take a look at People’s 4 for identification again, Linda.
This is the front of the Tate residence. There is the front door and you notice there is a VF for Wojciech Frykowski is where Mr. Frykowski fell when he first came out the front door?
A. Yes.
Q. I notice also on this photograph there is an LK on the sidewalk. That stands for “Linda Kasabian,” is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Is that where you were standing?
A. Yes.
Q. I notice over here on the front lawn there is a VF, Wojciech Frykowski No. 2.
When Tex was stabbing Mr. Frykowski, was he at the VF, which is right outside the front door, or was he at VF-2, which is on the front lawn?
A. He was at VF-2.
Q. Frykowski was at VF-2?
A. Yes.
Q. When Tex was stabbing him, what was Mr. Frykowski doing?
A. Just screaming and yelling and begging, falling to the ground.
Q. What part of Mr. Frykowski’s body did Mr.—did Tex Watson stab?
A. His back.
THE COURT: What is that Exhibit number?
MR. BUGLIOSI: That is People’s 4, your Honor.
I have here a photograph, People’s 25 for identification.
May it be remarked People’s 25, your Honor?
THE COURT: Yes.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Showing you People’s 25 for identification, Linda—I know you do not want to look at it—will you briefly look at it and indicate whether this is the gentleman you saw Tex stab?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, you indicated, also, that Patricia Krenwinkel, you saw her chasing after some woman?
A. Yes.
Q. Was that also on the front lawn of the Tate residence?
A. Yes.
Q. Could you describe this woman?
A. Just remember that she had a white gown on and she had black hair, long hair.
Q. Long, black hair and a white gown; is that correct?
A. Yes.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, I have here a photograph previously marked People’s 88.
May it be remarked People’s 88?
Q. Does this appear to be the woman—
A. My God—yes.
Q. —that Katie was chasing after?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you ever see Katie stab this woman?
A. No.
MR. BUGLIOSI: May I have just a moment, your Honor?
I have here an aerial photograph previously marked People’s 7 for identification. May it be remarked People’s 7?
THE COURT: It may be so marked.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: This is an aerial photograph, Linda, of the Tate residence.
This is the front lawn of the Tate residence. Do you remember during a prior trial marking these two X-s here on the front lawn, where you saw the lady with the white gown and Mr. Frykowski lying; or where you saw them in front of the house?
A. Do I remember marking?
Q. My memory is that you told me where to place an X; is that correct?
A. I guess so, yeah.
Q. Well, you will notice on this aerial photograph there is an X and it says, “Frykowski” and there is an X and it says “Folger.”
Do you remember telling me during the first trial to place X’s there where the bodies were?
A. I think so, yes.
Q. Prior to the first trial, the trial that you testified to, had you been shown any photographs of any of the victims in this case in death?
A. I don’t think so—no.
Q. You were shown them for the first time at the last trial?
A. Yeah.
Q. Going back just a little bit. When Tex told you to go back down to the car, you went down to the car where the man was shot; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did you look inside the car at that point?
A. Yes, I glanced.
Q. What did you see?
A. A man slouched over.
Q. Was his head slouched to the left or to the right?
A. To the right.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I have here a photograph, your Honor, previously marked People’s 42 for identification. May it be remarked People’s 42?
THE COURT: So marked.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you People’s 42 for identification.
Do you know what is shown in that photograph?
A. Yes.
Q. This is the man in the car?
A. Yes.
Q. Is this the way he looked when you were down by the car?
A. I couldn’t see all that.
Q. But his head was slouched to the right like this?
A. Yes.
Q. Now we are back down at the bottom of the hill where Tex had parked the car and you were down there by yourself; is that correct?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Tex, Sadie, and Katie eventually come down to the car?
A. Yes.
Q. How long after you got to the car did they arrive?
A. Just a few minutes.
Q. Did they appear to have blood on them?
A. Yes.
Q. What happened after they arrived back at the car?
A. I was already in the car and I remember Tex came over, and I had started the car, and he told me to turn the car off and told me to push over and I did and they all got in and started up the car and drove off.
And they changed their clothes. I held the wheel for Tex and he changed his clothes.
THE COURT: What?
THE WITNESS: I held the wheel for Tex while he changed his clothes.
THE COURT: Speak up.
THE WITNESS: Something was mentioned about finding a place to hose off and finding a garbage can and burning their clothes.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Who said this?
A. Tex did.
Q. What did Tex say in that regard?
A. I don’t remember his exact words.
Q. What did he say about clothing?
A. Just that he wanted to find a garbage can and burn the clothes.
Q. The clothing that they had on?
A. Yes.
Q. Before this discussion about the clothing and the hosing off, did Tex say anything to Sadie about her knife?
A. I don’t remember words but I know he was mad because she had lost her knife and he was mad at me because I went to the car and the car was on but I don’t remember his words, what he said.
Q. But he was mad at both of you?
A. Yes.
Q. Mad at Sadie because she lost her knife.
A. Yes.
Q. And mad at you for running back down to the car.
A. Yes.
Q. Let me ask you this: Was the revolver in the car at that point?
A. Yes.
Q. Did the revolver appear to be in the same condition at that time as it was previously when you were driving to the Tate residence?
A. I don’t know at what time I noticed but I noticed that the handle was broke.
Q. Now, you say the handle was broke. You are referring to the right handle on the grip here?
A. Yes.
Q. It was off the way it is right now?
A. Yes.
Q. Now, when you were driving to the Tate residence that night was the handle on the grip?
A. Yes, I assume—yes.
Q. Was the wooden grip on the handle?
A. Yes.
Q. Did Tex say anything to you about this grip not being on the handle?
A. I think he said something about that it had broken and it didn’t work when he hit the man over the head. I don’t remember his words.
Q. How many knives were in the car at that point? Now, this is after you are all back in the car and you are driving away.
How many knives were in the car?
A. Two.
Q. Your buck knife?
A. Yes.
Q. And one of the others?
A. No, not my buck knife.
Q. Not your buck knife?
A. No, the knife that I had with the tape and the other knife I don’t remember what that looked like.
THE COURT: The knife with the tape was in the car?
THE WITNESS: Yes.
THE COURT: What about the other?
THE WITNESS: The one that looked similar to it I can’t remember.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: This buck knife, Exhibit 39, you brought to Spahn’s, this was no longer in the car?
A. No.
Q. So you assume that this is the knife that Sadie left at the Tate residence?
A. Yes.
THE COURT: If you have come to a new topic we can recess.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Yes.
THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, we will recess until tomorrow at 9:30.
Once more, ladies and gentlemen, do not form or express any opinion in this case. Do not discuss it among yourselves or with anybody else. Please keep your minds open.
The spectators will remain seated until the jury leaves.
(An adjournment was taken until Tuesday, August 17, 1971 at 9:30 a.m.)