Historic Trial Transcripts

CHARLES WATSON

the defendant herein, called as a witness on his own behalf, testified as follows:

THE CLERK: Thank you. Be seated.

Would you state your name?

THE WITNESS: Charles, C-h-a-r-l-e-s Watson; W-a-t-s-o-n.

THE CLERK: Thank you.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. BUBRICK:

Q. Charles, when is it that you first came to California?

A. It was in August of 1967.

Q. And when you came here, where did you come from?

A. Dallas, a small town named Copeville, Texas,

Q. Is Copeville where you had been raised?

A. Yes.

Q. And who did you live there with?

A. My parents and my brother and my sister.

Q. Your sister is the oldest one in the family; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And then your brother is next, obviously, then you are the youngest?

A. Right, yes.

Q. And there was just the three of you in the family; is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What sort of a town, or how big a town is Copeville?

A. Around 150 people.

Q. Can you place it for us with respect to Dallas?

A. It is 35 miles from Dallas, believe, north, I believe.

Q. 35 miles north of Dallas?

A. Yes.

Q. I take it you lived there all of your life; is that correct?

A. That’s correct.

Q. Did you go to school in Copeville?

A. I went to school in Farmersville.

Q. How far is that from Copeville?

A. Seven miles.

Q. How did you get there?

A. I rode the bus.

Q. Did you have any difficulty in grade school or elementary school?

A. No.

Q. Did you go to school regularly?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you play hookey; do you know what I mean by that?

A. No, I always got a perfect attendance award every year for not missing any days.

Q. Was your health good in those days?

A. Yes, very good.

Q. Did you have any hobbies while you were going to grade school?

A. No, I don’t believe so, in going to grade school; just maybe working around the station and around the house and stuff, that’s about all.

Q. What did your father do?

A. He owns a gas station and grocery store, combined.

Q. Is that close to the family residence?

A. Yes, it is; the house is right beside the store.

Q. Is that the only business you have known your father to have?

A. Yes, right.

Q. And did you grow up while he was conducting that station and that little store?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you work there with him from time to time?

A. After school and in—in my early years—and then after football practice and the sport practices when I was in college.

Q. But in your younger years, you would help out occasionally; is that correct?

A. Right, occasionally.

Q. Eventually, I take it, you went into high school; is that correct?

A. That’s correct.

Q. Where did you go to school, in high school?

A. Farmersville High School.

Q. Did you go there the full four years?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have any extracurricular activities in high school?

A. Sports, and I was in the band one year, I believe; and the big thing kind of was sports all the time, football and basketball and track.

Q. Did you letter in those sports?

A. Yes, every year I lettered in sports.

Q. How many letters did you get in high school?

A. Well, I got one each year; that would be four in football and in basketball and in track.

Q. 12 letters for the four years?

A. 12 letters, yes.

Q. Did you ever do any—did you ever belong to the 4-H Club?

A. Yes, uh-huh.

Q. How long were you in that organization?

A. Two years.

Q. What did you do as a member of that club?

A. I remember we raised calves and things like that, you know.

Q. Did you raise a calf?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Anything else that you remember doing in the 4-H club?

A. No, I don’t remember of anything else.

Q. Did you belong to something known as the FHA—-I mean FFA?

A. FFA.

Q. I am sorry.

A. Future Farmers.

Q. Future Farmers of America?

A. Right.

Q. Is that an organization similar to the 4-H club?

A. Yes.

Q. How big a school is Farmersville High School?

A. I’m not for sure about that at all. I know there was about 40 in my class.

Q. In your graduating class?

A. Right.

Q. Do you have any idea of about how many students were in the school, the total school population?

A. Just what I have heard recently, 500, but that is all I know, you know. I don’t know how many was in there.

Q. What sort of grades did you get in high school?

A. A’s, mostly A’s. I made a B every once in a while.

Q. Were you on any honorary societies in school, if you remember?

A. I can’t remember. I know I was in the top—one of the top 10 in my graduating class.

Q. Did you do any work after school or during the summer periods while you were going to school?

A. Yes. I always worked for Mr. Carpenter at an onion packing plant, making money for college.

Q. Save the money you made working for him?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know how many summers or how many years you worked for him?

A. I was around 14 when I started working for him and I worked for him all the summers up until the summer I came to California and then I didn’t work for him that summer.

Q. And the last summer would have been 1966 that you worked for him?

A. I believe so, yes.

Q. You came here in ’67; is that correct?

A. Right, uh-huh.

Q. I take it you did not work for him in ’67.

A. No, I didn’t.

Q. What sort of work did you do for Mr. Carpenter?

A. I sacked onions and I was kind of a mechanic around the shop and I drove a forklift and when I first started I graded onions and toted bags, I should say carried the bags around to plant.

Q. And in your latter years, Charles, how long would you work during your summer vacation?

A. We would work up to, I remember some weeks I worked up to 90 hours a week.

Q. Would you work the entire summer?

A. Yes, I would.

Q. From the time school let out until the time school started again?

A. Sometimes I would start just a little before school got out and work after school a little bit and then I worked all summer.

Q. How did you get along with the people at the plant, the people you worked with?

A. Good.

Q. Did you ever have any difficulty with any of them?

A. No, sir, not at all.

Q. Did you ever have any fights with any of them?

A. No.

Q. How did you get along with your brother and sister?

A. Very well.

Q. Did you have any difficulty with them that you can recall?

A. No, never did.

Q. And how about your dad? What would you say your relationship was with him?

A. Well, my relationship with him was like I said when I would get home from my school in my younger years I would kind of play around between the house and the station there, and then after I got into high school, I would always be playing sports until dark like and I would come home and then I would be at the house mostly, you know, studying or—studying until the time for bed, you know, then I would go to bed.

THE COURT: What Mr. Bubrick wants to know is did you get along well with your father.

THE WITNESS: Yes. I got along well with my father.

Q. BY MR. BUBRICK: You never had any fights that you know of with your dad?

A. No, not at all.

Q. Did you ever have any reason to leave home? Did you ever run away from home?

A. No, no.

Q. Was your dad a pretty good mechanic?

A. Yes, uh-huh.

Q. Where did you pick up your mechanical skills?

A. From my dad.

Q. After you graduated from high school, Charles, did you go on to college?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Where did you go?

A. I went to North Texas State University.

Q. Incidentally, how big a person were you physically while you were going to high school?

A. Most of the time I weighed around 155 or 160, maybe up to 165 at times.

Q. Is that about what you weighed while you played football?

A. Yes, that’s what I weighed when I played football.

Q. How about track, did you maintain the same weight or did you slim down?

A. I don’t recall about that; I just—

Q. What was your major endeavor in track?

A. High hurdles and the hundred yard dash, and the 220.

Q. Do you remember the best time you ever made for the high hurdles?

A. Fourteen something; fourteen nine or fourteen eight, fourteen seven, in the upper fourteens.

Q. Is that 220 high hurdle—

A. No, it is 120 high hurdles.

THE COURT: How about the hundred yard dash; what was the best you did there?

THE WITNESS: The best I ever did was nine nine.

THE COURT: Nine nine?

THE WITNESS: Right.

Q. BY MR. BUBRICK: Now, when you went on into college you went to Denton—I’m sorry, you went to South Texas State in Denton; is that correct?

A. That’s correct.

Q. How far is that from Copeville?

A. Around 50 miles.

Q. When you went to college, Charles, did you live in Denton or did you commute?

A. I lived in Denton.

Q. Whose decision was it to go to North Texas State?

A. It was more or less my mother’s decision to go to North Texas.

Q. You had an older brother who played football, didn’t you?

A. Yes, I had an older brother that played football.

Q. Where did he go to school?

A. He went to school at Texas Christian University.

Q. And did he go on a scholarship, if you know?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. When you went to North Texas State did you go on any scholarship?

A. No, I didn’t.

Q. Had your sister gone to that same school?

A. Yes, she had.

Q. Did you particularly want to go to North Texas State?

A. I really didn’t know. It didn’t make me any difference, you know, where I want to college. I didn’t really object to it and I didn’t really want to, you know.

Q. Well, did you really want to go to college?

A. It really wasn’t my decision, you know, like my brother and sister had gone, so that’s what I was expected to do, was to go to college.

Q. You felt that was what was expected of you; is that correct?

A. In a way, yes.

Q. And that I take it you did actually enroll and go for three years; is that correct?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did you do any work while you were going to school?

A. Well, the summers I would work at the onion packing plant until the last semester in college; and I started working for Braniff International.

Q. I appreciate that you worked during the summer, Charles; but did you do anything while you were going to school—

A. No.

Q. —did you work after school, days?

A. No, I didn’t work after school. I had saved my money, you know.

Q. Did you come home very frequently?

A. Not very frequently, no, I didn’t.

Q. Did you have any transportation? Did you have a car by this time?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. When did you first get a car, if you remember?

A. I believe my last year in high school I got a car.

Q. And did you take that on to college with you?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. When did you start to work for the airlines?

A. I started to work for the airlines, I believe, around the first part of 1967.

Q. Were you still going to school then?

A. Yes.

Q. And where did you work, in what facility did you work?

A. Dallas, Texas.

Q. And how did you get from Denton to Dallas?

A. I would drive.

Q. How far is that?

A. I believe it is around 40 miles.

Q. 40 miles each way?

A. I believe, yes.

Q. And did you maintain a full course of studies in college?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Then what did you do, work everyday after school?

A. No, I worked—yeah, everyday after school, right.

Q. How long, how many hours would you work daily?

A. I worked a full eight hours, plus I went to school full time and worked full time.

Q. Do you remember what time your classes would let out so that you could get on to work?

A. Sometimes—let’s see, during that period I believe they got over between noon and 2:00 o’clock, something like that.

Q. Then after class was over you’d drive down to the airlines?

A. Right.

Q. Where, what facility did you work at; did you work at some airport or something?

A. Dallas airport.

Q. Do you remember the name of that?

A. I believe it was Love Field, I believe.

Q. Love Field?

A. Love Field, yes.

Q. And you would leave school and drive the distance to Love Field, and how long would you work at the airport?

A. I would work there till around midnight.

Q. And then what would you do?

A. Then I would come back and study or go to sleep, and get up and go to classes again.

Q. How long did you maintain this schedule?

A. Until school was out in the summer.

Q. Summer of ’67?

A. Yes.

Q. And what sort of grades did you get that semester?

A. Much lower grades than I had been getting.

Q. And what happened in the summer of ’67, if anything?

A. Well, I quit the airlines and decided to move to California.

Q. Now, do you remember—did you know Dave Neal in school?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And how did you happen to know him?

A. He was a fraternity brother of mine.

Q. Did you live at a fraternity house?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Did Dave live there?

A. No, Dave didn’t.

Q. How often would you see Dave at school?

A. Quite often, you know, during the weeks.

Q. Was Dave a football player at school?

A. Yes, he was on—I believe he had a scholarship or something like that in school.

Q. Did you know that Dave had moved to California?

A. Yes.

Q. I take it you realized he had dropped out of school?

A. Not for sure about that.

Q. But you did know that he came to California?

A. I know he came to California and he didn’t finish, so he must of—I don’t know if he dropped—I guess you’d call it dropout.

Q. How long did you go to college?

A. Three years.

Q. And you dropped out your last year, is that correct?

A. That is correct. I didn’t go my senior year.

THE COURT: Charles, have you told us when you were born?

THE WITNESS: I was born December 2nd, 1945.

Q. BY MR. BUBRICK: You actually were born in Dallas; is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Then you moved right to Copeville thereafter?

A. I guess I did. That was pretty early, you know.

Q. Do you have any recollection of ever having lived in Dallas?

A. No, I do not.

Q. Do you know how it was that you came to find Dave in California?

A. I remember that he—right at the end of school, I believe, that last semester, he was visiting some people in Denton—I believe his family or something—- and he talked about California and I knew then I knew someone in California then, I guess, you know.

Q. Did you know where in California he lived?

A. No, I did not. I didn’t know. I just knew he was in California.

Q. Prior to coming to California, Charles, had you ever visited any other parts of the country?

A. No, other than I had been to Mexico a couple of times.

Q. How did you get there?

A. On Braniff Airlines, passes and things like that.

Q. This is while you worked for the airline company; Is that correct?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. Do you remember how many times you flew to Mexico with them?

A. I believe a couple of times. I went to Acapulco.

Q. Both times?

A. Yes.

Q. And were those the only flights that you made out of Texas other than to California, if you remember?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. Do you remember how you got in touch with Dave when you decided to come out here?

A. I phoned him.

Q. From where?

A. From Dallas, I believe.

Q. How did you find out where he lived here in Los Angeles, or in California, I should say?

A. I don’t remember really but I believe the telephone was in his name or something like that.

Q. And so you called him when?

A. Around in August of ’67.

Q. Did you come out here then?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. How many times? Do you remember?

A. I would say about four times, I believe.

Q. You came out here at some time you decided to stay permanently; is that correct?

A. Yes. The last time I decided to stay permanently.

Q. How many trips did you make between Dallas and California before you came here on a permanent basis?

A. I would say about four.

Q. Do you remember when they occurred?

A. During the month of August, I believe, maybe the latter part of July, I believe. I can’t recall for sure.

Q. When would you come out, if you remember, what days of the week?

A. I would come out on the weekend, or when my—I would be working for them and then when my two days came up to be off, I would come out.

Q. How did you come out? On passes?

A. Yes, and half fare, I believe.

Q. Always on Braniff Airlines?

A. No; it was on Delta Airlines.

Q. Delta?

A. Yes.

Q. When did you decide to come out here permanently, if you remember?

A. The latter part of August before school started that year.

Q. In 1967?

A. Yes.

Q. When you made that move, Charles, did you bring anything with you?

A. I brought all my possessions with me.

Q. What did that include, if you remember?

A. All my clothes, I had quite a lot of clothes and a lot of stereo equipment and camera equipment and things like towels and linens and just all kinds of little gadgets, you know.

Q. And prior to the time that you left Texas to come to California, had you ever had any drugs? Ever use any drugs?

A. I used marijuana one time.

Q. Where was that?

A. That was in Dallas.

Q. Do you remember what year?

A. That was nearly the day I moved to California.

Q. What?

A. Nearly the day—it was just about the same day or right around the time.

Q. That would have been in August of ’67?

A. Yes, right.

Q. Do you remember who you used it with?

A. I used it with a girl in Dallas.

Q. Is that the only occasion on which you used marijuana in Texas?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. Did you use any other drugs in Texas?

A. None other than one or two times I stayed up for exams or something at school and some kind of a pill that would make you stay awake, you know, like to be able to stay up and study for the test, one or two times. I believe that is all.

Q. Other than those two occasions, are there any other drugs that you can think of that you used in Texas?

A. No, none at all.

Q. When you came to California then in August of ’67, where did you stay, if you remember?

A. I moved in with David and his brother.

Q. Where were they living, if you remember?

A. In the Hollywood area, I believe.

Q. Did you bring your possessions with you, or were they trans shipped, if you remember?

A. Some of them I brought with me and a lot of them were shipped in a big trunk, I remember a big trunk, and big boxes.

Q. Did you take all the things with you then to David or wherever he lived with his brother?

A. Yes, right.

Q. How long did you stay there?

A. I believe around two or three weeks.

Q. Can you fix the time of year for us now?

A. It was before school has started and before I had enrolled in school at Cal State.

Q. Did you actually enroll at Cal State?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Do you remember when that was?

A. I believe school started around the middle of September, is that correct? The middle of September or somewhere like that.

Q. What brought you to California, if you know?

A. I don’t really know why. I think it was just maybe the adventure, I guess—that’s about it, about the adventure, I guess, I mean—

Q. You told us how big a city Copeville was. How big a city was Farmersville?

A. Around 2,000 people.

Q. And how about Denton?

A. I don’t have any idea.

Q. Was it bigger than Farmersville?

A. Yes, it was big—bigger.

Q. And aside from being away from home at Denton, had you ever been away from home before?

A. No, I haven’t.

Q. So this is really the first time that you have been away from home, on any extended period; is that correct?

A. Yes, it was the first time away from home.

Q. You enrolled, then, at Cal State in September of ’67; is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. Did you go to school?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. For how long?

A. Up until the time when you could—it was right after the time when you couldn’t drop out, without getting all—right after that time.

Q. Can you tell us how long you went in terms of weeks, months or anything like that?

A. I’d say a couple of months.

Q. Then you just left school, did you?

A. Yes, I was working at the same time and going to school.

Q. What sort of work were you doing about this time?

A. I was working for a wig company.

Q. Do you remember where it was located?

A. It was—in Beverly Hills.

Q. Is this still a time when you were living with David and his brother?

A. No, I had moved; David and I had moved into an apartment together.

Q. When did you make that move?

A. A couple of weeks after I was living with David in Hollywood, after—a couple of weeks after I came to California.

Q. Was that before you enrolled in school?

A. Both of those happened about the same time.

Q. So that might have been what, September of ’67?

A. Yes, right.

Q. When did you go to work for the wig company, if you know?

A. Around the same time.

Q. What sort of work were you doing?

A. Started out walking around the streets passing out cards to women to get them to come into the shop.

Q. For wigs?

A. Yes.

Q. How long did you do that?

A. Until I started selling wigs in the shop.

Q. How long did you work at the wig shop?

A. Until I had an automobile accident.

Q. When did that occur?

A. That was at the first of ’68.

Q. In January?

A. In January, I believe, yes.

Q. Where were you living—were you living at the same place with David while you worked at this wig shop?

A. Yes.

Q. And were you living with David when you had the accident?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have some surgery; were you hospitalized with the accident?

A. I had a knee operation.

Q. Do you remember when that was?

A. That was about a month after the accident.

Q. Were you laid up for any period of time, if you remember?

A. Yes, for a while; and then for, I guess—I don’t know how long, but I laid up a while and then I went back working for the wig company.

Q. Did your mother come out to visit you while you were laid up?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. How long did she stay, if you remember?

A. I don’t remember exactly; about a week, I believe.

Q. When you went back to work did you go to work for the same wig company?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. How much longer did you work for that company?

A. I believe about a month or two, I believe.

Q. What happened after you left that job?

A. David and I opened up a wig shop of our own.

Q. Where did you do that?

A. It was close to Wilshire, I know.

Q. In the west end of town, downtown, where?

A. Probably about 10 miles from downtown, I believe.

Q. Was it in the western part of the city?

A. No, it was kind of in the Hollywood district.

Q. How long did you maintain that business, the one that you and David started?

A. Not for very long, because it didn’t work out, didn’t make any money.

Q. Did you ever meet anybody by the name of Dennis Wilson?

A. Yes.

Q. When did you meet him, if you know?

A. It was right around the time when we went out of business at the wig shop.

Q. How did you happen to meet Dennis Wilson?

A. I was driving down Sunset Boulevard toward the ocean and then I picked him up hitch-hiking.

Q. Now, up until the time that you met Dennis Wilson and after you moved here to California, had you used any drugs?

A. Yes, I had used marijuana and hash.

Q. What is hash?

A. That’s a form of marijuana; the same thing as marijuana, I believe; and rosewood seeds one time.

Q. Do you remember where you were living when you used the rosewood seeds?

A. I was living in Laurel Canyon.

Q. Had you used them on any other occasion other than this one?

A. No, I only used them once.

Q. What effect, if any, did it have on you, if you know?

A. Well, a lot of hallucinations. I remember the room came in on me, completely; and it seems like my head was just in one little room, you know, and the little room was around my head. And I remember I hit a door, hit the door and put my hand through a door; and kind of got mad at the guy that gave them to us, you know.

I never had did anything like that or anything, and I couldn’t understand why he had given me something that would make me do that.

Q. Was anybody else with you at the time you took the rosewood seeds?

A. David was with me—David.

Q. Other than that you had smoked marijuana and hash; is that correct?

A. That’s correct.

Q. Had you ever had any reaction from those drugs?

A. No, none at all.

Q. Do you remember on how many occasions you might have smoked them?

A. We smoked—I don’t know how many occasions.

Q. Numerous?

A. Yes, uh-huh.

Q. Now, can you tell us about when it was that you met Dennis Wilson?

A. It must have been around in April, I guess, April of May of—it would be ’68.

Q. I think you told us you picked him up hitch-hiking; is that correct?

A. That’s correct.

Q. Where did you take him, if you remember?

A. I took him to his house.

Q. Where was that?

A. It was in Pacific Palisades.

Q. Was there anybody else there when you got there?

A. Yes, a guy by the name of Dean Moorehouse was there; and Charles Manson was there and he had a bunch of girls with him, about five or six girls.

Q. Had you ever met any of these people before?

A. No, that was the first time.

Q. How long did you stay at Dennis Wilson’s on the date of your first meeting with him?

A. Just for a while that evening.

Q. Did anything unusual happen while you were there?

A. No, not nothing unusual. We just sat around the coffee table and the girls brought in some food and we smoked some hash that night.

Q. That was the first night you met Dennis and the other people?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. Was there anything other than hash that was used, if you remember?

A. No, not at all.

Q. What sort of a car were you driving, if you remember?

A. I was driving an old truck, ’35 Dodge, kind of an antique truck.

Q. I think you told us you stayed a couple of hours that evening, did you?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. Where did you go after that?

A. I went back—I went, drove on down to where our house was on the beach.

Q. In the Malibu area?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. Were you still living with somebody else?

A. I was living with David at the time.

Q. Were you working at this time?

A. No. I had just went out of the wig business.

Q. Did you see Dennis Wilson often thereafter?

A. On occasions I would drop by and visit and go swimming in the pool.

Q. Did you become friendly with anybody you met at Dennis Wilson’s?

A. Dennis wasn’t there a lot and a guy by the name of Dean Moorehouse was living there. He was kind of the one that raked up the leaves and kind of took care of the place.

Q. Where was he living, if you know?

A. He was living in a little log cabin behind the main house.

Q. That is on Dennis Wilson’s property?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. Would you see Dean Moorehouse frequently?

A. Yes, quite often. I eventually moved into Dennis’ house. Dennis asked me to move in.

Q. Do you remember when you did that?

A. David and I leased out the beachhouse, our beachhouse, and then after that I really didn’t have a place to stay, so Dennis asked me to move in to his place.

Q. How many times would you say you had seen Dennis or you had been at Dennis’ house from the time that you first met him and the time that you moved in?

A. Probably 10 times.

Q. How about Dean Moorehouse, had you met him on a number of occasions?

A. Every time I was there, he was there.

Q. How about Charles Manson?

A. Charles Manson was there a few times and his girls was always there, you know.

Q. When you say “his girls,” do you know who they were? Can you identify them for us?

A. No, I can’t. I believe Brenda was there, a girl by the name of Diane.

Q. Is that Diana Lake?

A. She always went by the name of Diane Bluestein. That was her name.

Q. Is that the Diane that you are talking about?

A. Yes, Diane Lake is the Diane I am talking about and another girl named Diane, too, that was a girl friend of Dennis’ was living there.

Q. Do you know her last name?

A. No, I don’t.

Q. Does Mr. Moorehouse have a daughter?

A. Yes, he had a daughter.

Q. Was she there?

A. On occasion she was there. She lived out at the ranch mostly.

Q. What would you do when you would visit with Dennis before you moved in?

A. Just kind of go over and sit around and go swimming and then Dean Moorehouse would be talking to me all the time, you know.

Q. What did he talk about?

A. Kind of about dropping out of society, I guess you would say, or about society.

Q. What would he say about society that you can now remember?

A. Well, he would talk about how they had a lot of wants and desires, of wanting material things, and how they had a lot of thought in their heads and a lot of wants.

Q. Did he say there was anything wrong with having thoughts in your head or having wants?

A. Yes. He said that this was where the—that it was destroying the love in the world.

Q. Did he ever tell you how he defined love?

A. Not having any thought, being able to give everything that you had.

Q. On how many occasions would you say you and Mr. Moorehouse talked along these lines?

A. Every time I was around him, this is all he talked about.

Q. Were you taking any drugs at this time?

A. During that period, just marijuana.

Q. And how frequently were you using that?

A. Pretty frequently.

Q. At Dennis Wilson’s?

A. Yes, before I moved in.

Q. Any other drugs that you used while you were at Dennis’?

A. After I moved in, I took some LSD.

Q. Let’s stop there a minute. Had you ever used anything like LSD before you moved in to Dennis Wilson’s?

A. No, this—no, never had used LSD before.

Q. Had you been staying with Dean Moorehouse before you moved into Dennis Wilson’s?

A. Well, I wasn’t staying with Dean Moorehouse, until I moved in to Dennis Wilson’s house.

Q. When you say you moved in with Dennis Wilson, did you move into the main house or did you move into the cabin that Dean Moorehouse lived in?

A. I moved into the main house, in one of the bedrooms.

Q. I think you told us you used some LSD there; is that correct?

A. Yes, LSD, but it was real light, like it really didn’t have a big effect.

Q. Do you remember what effect, if any, it did have on you?

A. At that time it just kind of made me submit and believe more of what Dean Moorehouse was saying.

Q. And was he saying the same thing you have told us about here before?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. Would Dean Moorehouse use LSD at the same time you did, if you know?

A. Yes.

Q. How about Dennis Wilson?

A. I never did take LSD that much, when I was living at Dennis Wilson’s house.

Q. Did you ever see Manson while you were at Dennis Wilson’s house?

A. Yes. He would always be coming over quite frequently.

Q. Did you ever see Mr. Manson use any LSD?

A. On one occasion, I believe while I was at Dennis’ house.

Q. How long did you live at Dennis’ house?

A. Up until the end of August or close to the end of August.

Q. What year?

A. I believe, ’68.

Q. Now, can you tell us the number of times that you used LSD while you lived at Dennis Wilson’s house?

A. Around two times; one time some people came by and gave it to us, and then another time I believe Dean had it that time.

Q. Did Dean use LSD both times that you did?

A. Yes, he did.

Q. Were you using anything other than LSD while you were living at Dennis’, other than the marijuana and hash that you have told us about?

A. Yes, some cannabinol—that’s a synthetic marijuana, I believe.

Q. Does that also go by some initials, if you know?

A. THC, I believe.

Q. Anything else?

A. That’s all.

Q. Were the girls there—

A. Let’s see, I think we took some—one time we took some peyote there.

Q. Do you remember who brought that?

A. No, I don’t remember who brought it by. I remember they cooked it or something. I remember I threw it up and that was it.

Q. Do you remember what form the peyote took?

A. It was a cactus-like plant.

Q. Then what did they do with it, if you know?

A. They cooked it up and we were supposed to eat it, you know; and that’s what we did.

Q. You ate some solid mass?

A. Right, it didn’t stay down; I threw it up.

Q. Did you take it on any other occasion that you remember, at Dennis Wilson’s?

A. No, none at all; that’s all I took at Dennis Wilson’s.

Q. Did you still have your truck and the hi-fi equipment and the other property you brought with you from Texas?

A. Yes, I had the truck and it was loaded down with all of my possessions that I could get in it; and the rest was at the beachhouse that we had leased out. I had a storage, kind of.

Q. What did you do with the stuff that was on your truck?

A. I gave it to Charles Manson.

Q. Do you remember when you did that?

A. It was right before I left Dennis Wilson’s house and after Dean had been talking to me, telling me about Charlie and all of the philosophies and stuff.

Q. Can you fix the time of it for us?

A. It was around in August of ’69.

Q. What did you give Charlie Manson?

A. I gave him the truck and all of the possessions that I had in the truck at the time.

Q. You mean you physically just turned it over to him?

A. Yes, that’s correct.

Q. And you actually turned it over to Manson; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have a pink slip for this truck?

A. I don’t believe I had a pink slip, but I had a bill off sale.

Q. Did you give that to Manson?

A. Yes, I did. I believe a girl by the name of Ruth Moorehouse, Charlie put it in her name.

Q. Do you know that of your own knowledge?

A. No, it never did go in her name because the truck stayed in my name, I found out later; but I believe I do remember her signing something to get it, you know.

Q. Did Mr. Manson ever tell you what he did with this property?

A. No, he said, I believe, something to the effect he just let it kind of flow through him.

Q. Was there any particular reason for giving it to a woman or a girl?

A. Well, he said that he always put it in the girls’ name, because he knew the girls would stay with him, where he didn’t know about the guys completely. He knew that the guys were always running off and he didn’t want anything in the men’s name, wanted to keep it in the girls’ names because he had control of all the girls.

Q. Well, did you have any feelings about turning your truck and property over to Mr. Manson?

A. No, I just gave it right to him.

Q. Did you want to do that?

A. At the time, that’s what I did, you know.

Q. Had you been talking to Dean Moorehouse frequently?

A. Yes, like I was living with Dean, you know, day and night; and this is what he would preach. He would preach Manson’s philosophy and also out of the bible.

Q. Did you know anything about Dean Moorehouse at all?

A. Just that he had told me that he’d given his—that he had set one daughter free, and this was Ruth he was talking about, because he had given her to Charles Manson; and that Charlie had given him LSD up north, and that he was an ex-Methodist minister.

Q. Is that what Dean Moorehouse told you?

A. Yes, that’s correct.

Q. Did he quote the scriptures?

A. Yes, he was always reading out of the bible and quoting the scriptures and relating the bible to Manson’s philosophy.

Q. Was there anybody—strike that.

Did Dean Moorehouse tell you anything about anybody in the family, the Manson family, owning anything in their own name?

A. No, none at all; everything was one. He used to talk about the oneness and how everybody was—how you gave up your identity and all of your wants and all of your desires and all your thought and became one, as one person.

Q. Were you permitted to own property in your own name as a member of the family?

A. No.

Q. Did Moorehouse say anything about that?

A. He said that everything belonged to one and the one was Manson.

Q. Now, you said something about you left, you moved from Dennis’ when, in August of ’68?

A. That’s correct.

Q. Where did you go then, if you remember?

A. Dean Moorehouse and I went up north to his trial. He was having a trial on LSD or something; he was being tried on LSD.

Q. Do you remember where the trial was being conducted?

A. No, I know it was on the other side of San Francisco.

Q. You mean north of San Francisco?

A. North of San Francisco.

Q. How did you get up there?

A. We went in Terry Melcher’s car.

Q. Had you ever met Terry Melcher?

A. Yes, I met Terry Melcher at Dennis’ house at—I guess you’d call it kind of a party, like Dean and I was living there and then Greg Jakobson was living there, and a bunch of Greg’s and Dennis’ friends just happened to be over one day and I guess you’d call it kind of a party, I think.

Q. Is that the first time that you met Terry Melcher?

A. Yes. I met him that time, that was the first time. I remember Dean said that was Doris Day’s son or something like that.

Q. Can you remember when this occurred?

A. It was in the last month that we were at Dennis Wilson’s house. That would have been in August.

Q. August of ’68?

A. Yes.

Q. When you say you went with Dean Moorehouse to his trial in Terry Melcher’s car, where did you get that car?

A. Terry, I believe Dean had been talking to Terry about going up north and Terry offered Dean his car to use.

Q. Were you with Dean when he picked up the car?

A. Yes, I was.

Q. Do you remember where Terry Melcher was living at the time?

A. He was living—it is on Cielo Drive, I believe, off of Benedict Canyon Road.

Q. How did you get up there, if you remember? I am talking about the day you went with Dean to get the car.

A. Yes. Dean had already picked up the car and he had asked me to come along with him on the trip, when we moved out of Dennis’ house, and went by Terry Melcher’s house to pick up his credit card.

Q. Whose credit card?

A. Terry Melcher’s credit card.

Q. Dean already had Terry Melcher’s car; is that correct?

A. Yes, that is correct.

Q. Now he was going to get Terry Melcher’s credit card?

A. That is correct.

Q. Do you remember a gate somewhere in the driveway leading up to the Terry Melcher house?

A. It seems like I recall it but I don’t believe—I can’t recall it having any big thing on it right now. I do recall going through a gate, yes.

Q. Do you remember whether it was open or closed when you got up there?

A. I can’t remember at that time.

Q. After you got in the front of the house, do you remember what you did?

A. We went in the house in the front room.

Q. Did you knock on the door to get in the house?

A. I can’t recall.

Q. You went in the house with Dean Moorehouse?

A. With Dean, yes.

Q. Had you ever been in that house before?

A. No, not before, no.

Q. This was the very first time you had ever been in it?

A. This was the first time.

Q. Ever been at a party at that house?

A. No, no party at that house.

Q. And you went into the front room, did you?

A. Yes, right.

Q. And Dean was also there?

A. Yes, that is right.

Q. Did something happen between Dean and Terry?

A. No. I remember we sat around in the front room, Dean end Terry and I, and we smoked some Marijuana together.

Q. Was there anybody else there with Terry Melcher?

A. His maid was there and his butler, I believe he called it, or chauffeur.

Q. They didn’t smoke any marijuana?

A. No.

Q. The three of you smoked marijuana. How long did you stay on that occasion?

A. I don’t recall. I can’t recall. I can’t recall how long we stayed—not too long, though, an hour I would say or something like that.

Q. And then I take it you left sometime shortly after that?

A. Yes, we did.

Q. Did Dean get Terry’s credit card?

A. Yes, his credit card and his car.

Q. What sort of a car did he get?

A. It was a black XKE.

Q. Jaguar?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you drive up north with Dean?

A. Yes. Before going up north, though, we went by a place called the Fountain of the World where Charlie Manson was, had a school bus parked there.

Q. Where is the Fountain of the World?

A. That is up in Box Canyon close to Spahn’s Ranch.

Q. That is in the Chatsworth area?

A. Yes.

Q. Had you ever been there before?

A. No. That was the first time.

THE COURT: Mr. Bubrick, might this be a good time to recess.

MR. BUBRICK: Yes.

THE COURT: Ladies and gentlemen we will recess at this time until 1:30.

Please once again heed the admonition heretofore given by the court.

The spectators will remain seated until the jury leaves.

(The noon recess was taken until 1:30 p.m. of the same day.)