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THOMAS T. NOGUCHI: December 5, 1969 Testimony

THOMAS T. NOGUCHI,

called as a witness before the Grand Jury, was sworn and testified as follows:

THE FOREMAN: Will you state your name; please.

THE WITNESS: Dr. Thomas Noguchi, N-o-g-u-c-h-i.

THE FOREMAN: Will you stand just a moment, Doctor.

Will you raise your right hand and take the following oath:

You do solemnly swear that the evidence you shall give in this matter now pending before the Grand Jury of the County of Los Angeles shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?

THE WITNESS: I do.

THE FOREMAN: Will you please be seated.

EXAMINATION BY MR. STOVITZ

Q. Would you kindly state and spell your first name and last name; please.

A. Yes. The first name is spelled Thomas, T-h-o-m-a-s. Middle initial is T., and the last name, N-o-g-u-c-h-i, and I do have another abbreviation called M.D.

Q. And are you licensed to practice in medicine here in the State of California?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And do you have a specialty, Doctor?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is that specialty?

A. My specialty is called pathology. More specifically, forensic pathology, sir.

Q. And in your specialty, sir, how long have you engaged in performing postmortem examinations?

A. About ten years, sir.

Q. And what is your title, if any, that you have with the County of Los Angeles?

A. My title is the Chief Medical Examiner - Coroner for the County of Los Angeles.

Q. As the Coroner of the County of Los Angeles, sir, did you supervise certain postmortem examinations on August the 9th and August the 10th, 1969?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Doctor, we have arbitrarily just taken Count I as being Abigail Folger.

Do you have the records there before you on Miss Folger?

A. Yes.

Q. And do you have the case number described as 69-8974 for Abigail Folger?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. And do you have an identification photograph there in that folder?

A. Yes, I do, sir.

Q. May I have that; please?

A. Yes, you may.

May I also request your signature for official receipt of the Coroner’s photographs?

Q. I will give you my signature, Doctor.

A. Thank you, sir.

Q. I have received—there are fifteen photographs here, to your knowledge, Doctor?

A. Yes.

MR. STOVITZ: Taking just one photograph at random here that shows a face and body, may this photograph be marked next in order, which would be Grand Jury Exhibit No. 20; is that right?

This photograph of Abigail Folger, may this be marked Grand Jury Exhibit 20?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 20, sir.

Is that a photograph of the person that we have described as Abigail Folger, Case No. 69-8974?

A. That is correct, sir.

Q. And that was taken under your direction in the laboratory of the Coroner’s Office; is that correct?

A. That’s right, sir.

Q. And you did perform an autopsy, or, postmortem examination upon the person depicted in that photograph; is that right?

A. Yes, I did an inspection of the body and also directed and supervised the autopsy performed by another medical examiner whose name is Russell C. Henry, M.D.

Q. Is Dr. Henry still with the County of Los Angeles?

A. Not in my department, sir, no, sir.

Q. But, to your knowledge, he’s practicing medicine here in the State of California?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And you supervised that autopsy; is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. As a result of the autopsy performed upon the person shown in Exhibit 20 were you able to determine the cause of death of that individual?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what was the cause of death of Abigail Folger, the person depicted in Exhibit 20?

A. The cause of death was a stab wound of the aorta, that is the large blood vessel originating from the heart, causing a massive hemorrhage.

Q. Did you find any other wounds other than the stab wound to the heart?

A. Yes, I found a total of 21 stab wounds on the body, sir.

Q. Did you find any gunshot wounds to the body; sir?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, with respect to the stab wounds, did you examine the stab wounds to determine whether or not the same instrument caused all or substantially all of those stab wounds?

A. Yes, I do have an opinion; sir.

Q. What is that opinion; sir?

A. Based on the stab wound characteristics, the size and shape and angulation of the wounds, the 21 stab wounds appear to be caused by the same type of a sharp cutting instrument, sir.

Q. Could you describe that instrument further for us, such as a knife or fork or anything else?

Could you describe whether or not this instrument was like a dagger with two sharp edges or a triangular instrument with three sharp edges on it?

A. I would say, based on the general survey of the 21 stab wounds, it shows some similar characteristics which were—the item 1—stab wound was sharp and indicating sharp edges of one cutting edge, and other portion was a dull and tearing action, or, tearing appearance, and other shows two equally sharp cutting angulations, and the stab wounds themselves are veritably deep and the deepness was—could best be described because, I might say, because of a position change and the force involved it is rather difficult to establish the exact length of the depth of the wound, but I would say that there are—five to six inches stab wounds were observed in the body, sir.

Q. Now, some of these wounds depicted on Exhibit 20 are the stab wounds that you have just described; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Some of those wounds were what we might call superficial wounds; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And did they all appear to be of the same recent origin?

A. That is true, sir.

Q. Now, did you also perform a postmortem examination on a person that has been described to you as Mr. Frykowski, and your lab number would be Case No. 69-8973?

A. Yes.

Q. May I have the photographs, if you have any on that; please?

A. And, then, again, may I request your signature for the official receipt of a total of 10 photographs that you received?

MR. STOVITZ: Yes.

Again, we will take one photograph depicting the face and body of this individual and may this photograph be marked as Exhibit No. 21?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q. BY MR. STOVITZ: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 21, sir.

Is that a fair representation of the individual that we have described as Mr. Frykowski?

A. Yes.

Q. And you did supervise the postmortem examination on this individual, as well; is that correct?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. As a result of that postmortem examination were you able to determine the cause of death; sir?

A. Yes.

Q. What was that cause of death?

A. That cause of death was ascribed as follows:

Multiple stab wounds of the body causing massive hemorrhage.

Q. Did you find any gunshot wounds in the body of Mr. Frykowski?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Approximately how many; sir?

A. There was one gunshot wound, sir.

Q. Was there a bullet recovered by the Coroner’s Office?

A. That is true.

Q. Do you have that bullet with you or did you turn it over to the Los Angeles Police Department?

A. If I may make a correction. I do have a record that the bullet was found 19—pardon me, this is a—we were using a 24-hour time arrangement, so that the bullet was in fact turned into the representative from the Los Angeles Police Department on August 10, 1969, at 12:45 p.m., and received by W. J. Lee.

Q. Now, you stated that you found approximately how many stab wounds to Mr. Frykowski’s body?

A. I will be happy to state so. That a total count of the stab wounds found on the body was 51 stab wounds.

Q. Going to, now, the scalp, which is shown in Exhibit No. 21; is that correct?

A. Yes, partly shown.

Q. Yes.

Were there any lacerations or cuts to the scalp of Mr. Frykowski?

A. Yes, there were.

Q. Approximately how many?

A. A total of 13 cuts.

Q. And do you have an opinion as to what instrument, if any, made these cuts?

A. My opinion, based on the characteristics of wounds, I would say the wound has to be created by something heavy but blunt instrument.

It could be irregularly shaped but the surface itself would not have a sharp cutting edge. The wound characteristics were totally consistent with injuries caused by blunt force.

Q. Would it be somewhat similar to the handle of a gun, a revolver?

A. Well, study of the 13 lacerations itself not entirely inconsistent without knowing the size of the object. However, the gun butt would be able to create a similar laceration shown on the body.

Q. All right, now, did you find any stab wounds to the back of Mr. Frykowski?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Approximately how many?

A. There are 5, sir.

Q. And all of the 5 stab wounds to the back of Mr. Frykowski made by—do you have an opinion as to whether or not they were made by the same type of instrument?

A. Yes, I would say that, and we emphasize the same type of instrument. Yes, I would agree, the same type.

Q. In other words, what you are saying is you are not sure that it was the same instrument but it was the same type of instrument; is that correct?

A. That is correct.

Q. All right, in other words, if we just assume hypothetically that this instrument was a knife would this be a knife with two sharp edges or one sharp edge?

A. Yes, depending on the type of a knife. Not all knives have two edges and depending on the instrument and depth, whereby, the tip may have double edges and as the depth increased it may be a single-edge type of a sharp instrument and, however, there are enough characteristics for us experts in the field of forensic pathology to express opinion those are caused by the same type of instrument.

Q. Did you find any wounds on the anterior portion of the body?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And what is the anterior portion of the body; sir?

A. That is the front, basically, chest, up to the side of the chest, sir.

Q. Approximately how many wounds did you find in the anterior portion of the body?

A. Eleven.

Q. And these wounds, were they made by the same type of instrument; sir?

A. It is my opinion, yes.

Q. Can you say that any of the eleven wounds that you say that were on the front part of the body were made by two separate instruments; can you tell us that?

A. If they are same—well, it’s difficult for me to tell if a weapon is very very close or very similar.

However, we can safely exclude the weapon which will be entirely different from the weapon I have described before.

If there was something very wide or heavier, I might say, for example, that I would be willing to testify as to the fact these wounds are not caused by a hatchet or anything of that sort. It has to be a sharp instrument like knives or sometimes a type of knife where the pattern is observed caused by an instrument called a bayonet and sometimes a knife, with the homemade knife type where the knife has two edges.

Q. All right, now, it was in the anterior portion that you found this gunshot wound and that is one of eleven wounds that you just described; is that right?

A. Gunshot wound was found in the back.

Q. Did it enter the back or did it enter the front?

In other words, did the gunshot wound go from back to front or from front to back?

A. May I just look to the report, please?

Q. Yes.

A. Sir?

Q. Yes.

A. As to the description of the gunshot wound of the back, as I mentioned, the entrance wound was found in the left armpit, more toward back, and the direction of the gunshot wound track was almost horizontal as if the decedent were in a standing position.

Then the bullet was found in the back at the—the location which is called the fifth dorsal vertebra. That is fifth backbone column below the neck bone.

Q. And were there sixteen stab wounds to the left arm; Doctor?

A. Yes, sir, sixteen.

Q. And there were eight stab wounds to the left leg?

A. That is correct; sir.

Q. And can you tell us whether or not these stab wounds to the arm and to the leg, whether or not they were made by the same or different instruments, or do you have no opinion on that point?

A. Well, I do have an opinion based on the survey work done, that is, the comparison study of the wound characteristics, that they appear very similar in the length and depth of any characteristics. I would say that the total of 51 stab wounds were caused by the same type of instrument.

Q. Doctor, do you have an examination of a Steven Earl Parent before you?

A. Yes, I do, sir.

Q. And when was the autopsy of Steven Earl Parent performed; sir?

A. The autopsy was performed on August 10, 1969, at 2:00 p.m., at the central facility located in the Hall of Justice.

Q. Was that also done under your direction and supervision?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. I’m now initializing four 5 x 7 photographs of Steven Earl Parent, which is Coroner’s No. 69-8792; is that right, Doctor?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. STOVITZ: Taking the top photograph, which appears to be of the head, may this photograph be marked as Grand Jury Exhibit No. 22; please?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q. BY MR. STOVITZ: Doctor, showing you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 22, is this a photograph of the individual upon whom this postmortem examination was performed?

A. Yes.

Q. And as a result of the postmortem examination were you able to determine the cause of death of the individual whom we have described as Steven Parent?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What is that cause of death; sir?

A. The cause of death was multiple gunshot wounds of the chest causing massive hemorrhage.

Q. By “multiple,” how many would you say; Doctor?

A. There were two gunshot wounds in the chest; sir.

Q. And were there any other gunshot wounds that you found in this individual?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. How many was that; sir?

A. One gunshot wound was found on the left face. I should, perhaps, say cheek, and another gunshot was found on the left arm, which was a through-and-through gunshot wound, and I might refer—I will stop here a moment—for the purpose of the identification in the diagram, that fatal gunshot was labeled No. 1 and No. 2, and the gunshot wound on the cheek was labeled No. 3.

However, this number does not indicate in any way the sequence of events; sir.

Q. The gunshot, No. 4, do you know whether that was caused by a bullet that may have caused one of the other wounds or is that definitely caused by a separate bullet from any of the others?

A. It is rather difficult at this time to be certain. It could very well be a separate wound. However, if the left arm was in position which I am taking now, that is, about a 45—a 90-degree angulation in the elbow and my wrist is more toward to the front near the chest, that a through-and-through gunshot wound, No. 4, could be the wound found inside of the—on the chest.

Q. Which would be gunshot wound No. 2; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And did you recover the bullet from gunshot wound No. 2?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And was that also given to the Los Angeles Police Department, to Mr. Lee?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Now, with relation to gunshot wound No. 5, do you have an opinion as to whether or not that was made by a separate bullet, separate from any of the other gunshot wounds?

A. Yes, sir, I do have an opinion, sir.

Q. Now, what is that opinion; sir?

A. Based on the study, it appears this was a through-and-through gunshot wound, and so a total of gunshot wounds, we have labeled, my associate, Dr. Gaston Herrera, the Deputy Medical Examiner in my department, labeled 4 and 5 to represent the through-and-through gunshot wounds.

Q. So that gunshot wound No. 5 could have caused one of the other gunshot wounds that you previously described; is that right?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. So, then, actually, if you are talking about firing a bullet, three bullets probably could have been fired, it could have been five bullets fired in this case; is that right?

A. I would say 3 or 4 shots fired upon the body.

Q. All right, now, in addition to the gunshot wounds were there any stab wounds that autopsy revealed?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What stab wounds were they and where were they?

A. It was the left-hand. It was one cut found on the left hand.

Q. Is this sometimes called a defense wound?

A. Yes, it could be considered a defense wound.

The purpose of the term defense wound is to guard further injuries so that a human being holds hands toward the assailant receiving injuries rather than a fatal injury towards, more or less, in the chest area. This is often called defense wound, but I would like to reserve that opinion. This may not be truly classified a defense wound.

Q. All right, now, Doctor, did you in your office perform an autopsy on a person known to you as Sharon Marie Polanski?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And when was this autopsy performed?

A. Sir, that autopsy was performed August 10, 1969, and the autopsy was commenced at 11:20 a.m. and incision and examination of the organs were completed at 2:00 p.m. on the same date.

Q. And who, if anyone, in your department actually performed the postmortem examination?

A. The autopsy was performed by Thomas T. Noguchi, M.D., Chief Medical Examiner-Coroner for the County of Los Angeles. That is I.

MR. STOVITZ: Mr. Foreman, I have a photograph depicting a full view of a young lady who appears to have some type of rope around her neck, appearing to have some undergarment on.

May this be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 23?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q. BY MR. STOVITZ: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit 23.

Is that the photograph of the person whom I have called Sharon Polanski?

A. Yes.

Q. And as a result of the autopsy that you performed upon her, sir, were you able to find and determine the cause of death?

A. Yes.

Q. What is that cause of death; sir?

A. The cause of death as ascribed by me was multiple stab wounds of chest and back penetrating the heart, lungs and liver, causing massive hemorrhage.

Q. Doctor, when you first saw the body of the person depicted in Exhibit 23 did it have that rope around the neck as is shown in the photograph?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you examine that rope to determine the tightness of the rope?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. Did it appear to cause any type of strangulation? Was there any abrasion about the neck or any scarring there from the rope?

A. On the neck there was no indication of strangulation, no, sir.

Q. And did you find any significant condition about this woman with respect to pregnancy?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you find in that connection?

A. The examination revealed that decedent was eight months in pregnancy stage and the male fetus was found. However, there was no injury to abdominal area nor the unborn baby.

Q. Did it appear that the baby was in a normal state of embryo—rather, fetus state at that time?

A. Yes, sir. I performed an autopsy of the unborn male baby and there was no congenital abnormalities and maturation of the baby was entirely consistent with eight months pregnancy.

Q. And you say there was a total number of stab wounds of 16 to the body; is that right?

A. Well, I haven’t said it yet.

Q. How many are there?

A. A total of 16 stab wounds, sir.

Q. Were any of the stab wounds directly into the area where the fetus would be carried?

A. No, sir.

Q. Now, how many stab wounds did you find in the chest area of the person depicted in Exhibit 23?

A. Four, sir.

Q. And from your examination, would you say whether or not the same instrument or different instrument caused those four stab wounds?

A. I do have an opinion, sir.

Q. What is that opinion; sir?

A. Again, based on the general characteristics of the 16 stab wounds it appears those are caused by the same type of a sharp strong instrument.

Q. When you say “strong instrument,” do you mean it was used by a person that was strong or that the instrument was like a crossbow or a sword, or what do you mean by the strong instrument?

A. The term used, “strong instrument,” is no doubt referred to the instrument itself. It is constructed with great strength, strong, and I was not referring to the person.

However, that this opinion was based on the multiplicity of the stab wounds and also the characteristics of the wound which shows the tearing of the wound separating further as the instrument penetrates through the skin, indicating the thickness of the stab wound would be thicker than the usual pocketknife or thin blade knife. It would most likely be thicker than a kitchen knife.

Q. Is this instrument that was used on the body depicted in Exhibit 23 different in any way from the instruments that were used to cause the stab wounds to the other bodies?

A. No, sir, so far as I have testified, in four cases, I believe the wound characteristics are quite similar and could very well be caused by an instrument—or, a same type of instrument quite similar to the one—each other.

Q. Now, were there approximately eight wounds to the back of Sharon Polanski?

A. Yes, I would testify to that, sir.

Q. And then there were certain wounds to the arms and other areas of the body; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, do you have an opinion as to how soon after the infliction of these wounds the person would have met her death? Would death be instantaneous? Would it be within an hour? Would it be within several hours?

A. In my opinion, based on the study of the previous cases where person receives stab wounds to the heart causing massive hemorrhage, the person—average person would receive—first receive a profuse hemorrhage into the body cavity, thus causing a sudden drop of the blood pressure and it is quite possible still that the person would be able to move to escape from the location where he or she was injured, but most likely the person would be incapacitated very shortly after infliction of the stab wound through the heart and as the blood pressure decreased to less than one third of the normal blood pressure, which is about 40 millimeters in mercury—this is a medical term, now, we use—then it is very unlikely the person would be able to move and probably suffer a short period of coma and death usually occurs within 15 minutes.

Q. Would you find any bones that this sharp instrument would have had to go through in examination of Sharon Polanski’s body?

A. Yes.

Q. What did you find in that connection?

A. A number of the wounds in the back and also chest penetrated through the ribs.

Q. And would this take a great deal of force or moderate amount of force? Could a woman of, say, approximately 110, 112 pounds inflict such a wound?

A. Well, I would like to answer this way: This depends on the—and this type of wound can be created by a number of factors.

One, the instrument has to be reasonably sharp and is heavy enough to have momentum so that it can continue penetrating into the deeper tissue of the body and the person has to have enough strength to give a strong thrust into the body.

I could not think—based just on mere examination of the wound itself, I would not know whether a person who used the instrument has to be male. I do not feel that—I would be probably speculating too much if I would differentiate whether male or female. That the strength of male, female, sometimes is equal and sometimes depending on the circumstances. I don’t think I would be able to differentiate that.

Q. Doctor, was there also an autopsy examination performed upon Thomas John Sebring on August 10, 1969.

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And do you have the records pertaining to Mr. Sebring?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. I am initialing—rather, signing for five 5 x 7 photographs in Case No. 69-8795.

That is the case number that you gave to Mr. Sebring’s autopsy; is that correct, Doctor?

A. Yes, sir.

MR. STOVITZ: Taking a photograph which shows the face and upper chest, may that photograph be marked as Exhibit 24 for the Grand Jury?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q. BY MR. STOVITZ: I show you Exhibit 24.

Is that the photograph of the—the person depicted in that photograph, is that the person upon whom you performed the—rather, the autopsy was performed?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And as a result of the autopsy that was performed upon this individual depicted in Exhibit 24, did you determine a cause of death?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. What did you determine was the cause of death?

A. The cause of death was determined as follows—this is a medical term—exsanguination, e-x-s-a-n-g-u-i-n-a-t-i-o-n, it means massive hemorrhage, caused by stab wounds.

To be specific, the examination of body revealed a total of 6 stab wounds in the body.

Q. And what stab wounds to the body were in what general area, sir?

A. General area were in left side of the chest, and to be specific, that the organs that were involved which caused the hemorrhage were aorta, spelled a-o-r-t-a, a large blood vessel coming out from the heart and left lung, and also other injuries which are apart from the stab wounds; sir.

Q. What other injuries apart from the stab wounds did the autopsy reveal?

A. The decedent’s face showed bruise and swelling called, medical term, contusion, c-o-n-t-u-s-i-o-n.

The bruise on the nose and the left eye and the cuts were found on the left hand.

Q. Did you find any gunshot wound in the body of the person depicted in Exhibit 24?

A. Yes.

Q. How many and what was the nature of the gunshot wound?

A. Just a moment, may I refer to the document.

As far as we can determine by the inspection of the body and also use of X ray, there was a gunshot wound on left side of chest and penetrating to the left lung, and on the x-ray examination there are spattered fragmented bullet along the area of the central portion of the chest.

Q. In addition to that one gunshot wound that you described or is it that the gunshot wound that you just described?

In other words, are you describing, say, two gunshot wounds or just one that you saw by physical examination and by X ray?

A. This is the one gunshot wound which was physically found on the left side of the chest and another gunshot wound which was found during x-ray examination and the fragment was found in the—I believe, beneath the—on the back and just—I think between the skin and the shirt that he was wearing.

Q. That is where the bullet was found?

A. Yes.

Q. Did your office likewise turn that bullet over to the Los Angeles Police Department?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did you see these three bullets that were turned over—several bullets that were turned over to the Los Angeles Police Department?

Did you personally see these bullets?

A. Yes.

Q. To your knowledge of ballistics, did the bullets appear to be the same caliber, if you know; Doctor?

A. Although I am not a ballistics expert but I have seen thousands of bullets and recovered them I am willing to testify as an expert in forensic pathology and allied forensic sciences.

I would say that the bullets found were of small caliber bullets and they appeared to be the same and the configurations the same and the surface color, which was a brownish, which was also corresponding to others, and what we call striation markings on the side of the bullet also showed similar pattern.

Based on these facts I am willing to testify that those appear to be the same type of bullet.

Q. From your examination of the stab wounds on Mr. Sebring’s body could you tell us whether or not the same instrument was used to make those stab wounds?

A. Again, based on the same reasoning, study of the characteristics, it is most likely caused by the same type of an instrument.

Q. Doctor, can you tell us if your examination of the stab wounds made upon Mr. Sebring as well as upon Mrs. Sharon Polanski, whether or not the same instrument was used to make those stab wounds that you found on both of those bodies?

A. Comparison and studies of both individuals, decedents, wound characteristics were very similar. That is, indicating that type of instruments must have been the same or very similar.

MR. STOVITZ: We will go into the other deaths, if any, on Monday, ladies and gentleman.

If there are any questions, we will take about 30 seconds—

Q. BY MR. STOVITZ: From your examination on August the 9th, Doctor, were you able to fix a time of death of any of the individuals?

A. We have tried very hard to fix the time.

However, this area is rather difficult—extremely difficult area for even experienced forensic pathologists and we do not have definite fixation of time.

However, we do have a number of factors on data that may be of assistance. Later on we may be able to come to a reasonable conclusion.

Q. And, Doctor, there has been a question asked as to whether or not there has been any dismemberment of any private parts of either the males or females in this case.

Were you able to determine that from your examinations?

A. Yes.

Q. What was the answer to that question?

A. My answer would be quite emphatic there was no evidence of mutilation or dismemberment of the body or any injury into the private parts of the five victims.

Q. And would that also include sexual molestation; to your knowledge?

A. As far as signs can determine, based on the injury, there was no evidence of sexual molestation.

Q. You stated that you couldn’t make an exact time of death as to the five bodies. What about the fetus in the body of Sharon Polanski, could you tell how long the fetus was dead or did that appear to be simultaneous with that of the mother?

A. This would be not simultaneous in the sense that we know the fact that there were a number of cases where after a maternal death the babies have been saved by emergency Caesarian sections.

We feel that fetus is resistant to lack of oxygen to enable to survive a period of 15 to 20 minutes of cessation of the maternal circulation.

MR. STOVITZ: I take it there are no further questions.

We want to thank you very much.

Just a moment, we have two more questions.

Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: So this is absolutely clear, let’s go over this quickly, again.

Dr. Herrera recovered a bullet from Mr. Frykowski’s body; is that correct, under your supervision?

A. That is correct.

Q. Dr. Herrera turned the bullet over to Sergeant W. J. Lee of the Los Angeles Police Department on August 10, 1969?

A. Yes, sir.

Q. And Dr. Henry recovered the one bullet from between the shirt and back of Jay Sebring; is that correct, under your supervision?

A. Well, I personally removed it from between the—underneath of the shirt.

Q. Did you turn that bullet over to Sergeant Lee on August 11, 1969?

A. Yes, I turned this bullet over to W. J. Lee, serial number 6679, LAPD, and I handed it to him personally, with the proper identification, at 9:45 a.m. of August 10, 1969.

Q. BY MR. STOVITZ: August 11th; Doctor?

A. Let me check.

Yes, let me repeat this.

This bullet was recovered between the shirt and back, found loosely, during fluoroscopic, f-l-u-o-r-o-s-c-o-p-i-c, examination at 10:15 a.m. on August 10, 1969, and I placed it—identified it and I handed it to the person, W. J. Lee, on August 11th instead of August 10th, at 9:45 a.m.

Q. Under your supervision did Dr. Herrera remove two bullets from Steven Parent’s body?

A. May I just refer to that document?

It is true, sir, two bullets.

Q. Did Dr. Herrera turn these two bullets over to Sergeant W. J. Lee of the Los Angeles Police Department on August 10, 1969?

A. Yes.

Q. The gunshot wound to Frykowski, apparently was nonfatal; Doctor?

A. That is true.

Q. And the gunshot wound, or wounds, to Jay Sebring were also nonfatal?

A. That is true.

MR. STOVITZ: That is all.

Thank you again, Doctor.

THE FOREMAN: You are admonished not to discuss or impart at any time outside of this Jury Room, the questions that have been asked of you in regard to this matter, or your answers, until authorized by this Grand Jury or the Court to discuss or impart such matters. You may be excused.

You may be excused.

(Whereupon proceedings were adjourned until Monday, December 8, 1969.)

Q. You say “this house,” and you are referring to a group of rooms shown as a house in the composite; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recognize this house as the one that is shown in the photograph I just showed you?

A. Yes, I do.

Q. All right, what did Mr.—or, what did Tex do after he cut the lines?

A. He climbed back down, told all of us to get into the car put the bolt cutters back in the car, and drove back down the hill and parked on a side street.

Q. This is not shown on this diagram; Susan?

A. That is correct.

Q. What happened next?

A. Then he told us to get our changes of clothes and we all walked back up the hill and walked to this fence.

Q. Now, when you say “this fence,” I see the word “gate” on the diagram. Did you walk up to the gate?

A. We walked up to the gate but we didn’t want to touch it or go over it because we thought there may be an alarm system or electricity running through it.

Q. Is there a fence adjacent to this gate?

A. Yes, there is.

Q. On the left and right?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, what did you do after you approached the gate area?

A. We looked for a way to get over the gate and we noticed that—

Q. You say “get over the gate—”

A. Get over the fence.

Q. All right.

A. We walked over this way—it’s not shown on the diagram and there is a hill that goes up like this next to the fence. We walked up the side of the hill and could see that we could get over the fence easier there than getting over the fence where the gate is.

Q. Now, facing the gate that night was the fence to your right?

A. Yes.

Q. So the fence, then, would then be to the—

A. Left.

Q. Left of where I am pointing now but it would have been to your right?

A. That is correct.

Q. South on this diagram; is that correct, assuming that this is north?

A. Uh-huh.

Q. What happened after you approached the fence?

A. I was told to go over first so I threw my changes of clothes over the fence and held the knife between my teeth and climbed over and got my pants caught on part of the fence and had to kind of boost myself up and lift from where I was caught off of the fence and fell into bushes on the other side of the fence and I was followed by the other three people.

Q. You say “other three people,” you mean Tex, Patricia Krenwinkel and Linda Kasabian?

A. Right.

Q. What happened next?

A. Then we were going to move forward in this direction.

Q. Toward the residence?

A. Toward the residence, and we saw lights coming from, apparently, this car.

Q. You say “this car.” Are you referring to a little rectangle here that has “Parent’s two-door Rambler, MPX 308”?

A. Right.

Q. Was this car in motion, would you say?

A. I didn’t actually see the car, I just saw the headlights.

Q. Did the car appear to be in motion?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. What happened next?

A. Tex told us girls to lie down and be still and not make a sound. He went out of sight.

Q. Did all three of you girls lie down and stay silent?

A. Yes.

Q. What happened next?

A. Tex went out of my sight and I heard him say, “Halt.”

Q. Did you hear any voice other than that?

A. Yes, I heard a voice say—

Q. Was it a male voice?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. Man or boy?

A. It was a male voice.

Q. What did the male voice say?

A. “Please don’t hurt me, I won’t say anything.” And I heard a gunshot and I heard another gunshot and another one and another one.

Q. You heard four gunshots?

A. Yes.

Q. What happened next?

A. Tex came back to us and told us to come on. I saw him go to the car, which was not parked here. At the time, it was over here.

Q. It was parked closer to the gate than it is right now on the diagram?

A. Yes, he reached inside, turned off the lights, and then proceeded to push the car to where it is parked here.

Q. On the diagram?

A. Yes.

Q. What happened next?

A. Then we walked—

Q. Towards the residence?

A. Towards the residence, past the garage.

Q. You say “past the garage,” you mean this—

A. This building.

Q. Where it says two story garage” on the diagram?

A. Yes. I did not know it was a garage at that time.

We walked past that, came down to the walk but got off of the walk.

We came in this direction and walked over to this window.

Q. Is “this window” near the front door of the residence?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. Is it to the left or the right of the front door?

A. It is to the right.

Q. Did all four of you approach that area?

A. Yes.

Q. What happened next?

A. Tex opened up the window, crawled inside and the next thing I knew he was at the front door opening the front door.

MR. BUGLIOSI: You may resume the witness stand, Susan.

I have here, Mr. Foreman, a photograph of a residence.

May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 8 for identification?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Susan, I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 8 for identification.

Does this appear to be a photograph of the home where Tex and you other three girls went?

A. Yes.

Q. I direct your attention to a door. Does this appear to be the front door that you have been referring to in your testimony?

A. Yes.

Q. To the right of the front door I direct your attention to what appears to be an open window.

Is this the window through which Tex went?

A. Yes, it is.

Q. After he went through the window then he opened the front door, you say?

A. Yes.

Q. Did all of you girls enter at that time?

A. Only two of us entered, one stayed outside.

Q. Who stayed outside?

A. Linda Kasabian.

Q. And you and Patricia Krenwinkel entered the residence?

A. Yes.

Q. And at that time Tex was already inside the residence; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. After you heard these four shots did you ever approach the vicinity of the car?

A. I walked past it.

Q. Did you see anyone inside the car?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you look at their face?

A. I couldn’t see the face, I just saw the head and it was leaning with his face—

Q. Towards the right or the left?

A. Towards the right to the passenger side.

MR. BUGLIOSI: I have here a photograph, Mr. Foreman, of a vehicle.

May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 9 for identification?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

MR. BUGLIOSI: And I have here another photograph of the interior portion of the vehicle, also depicted a male Caucasian behind the steering wheel in the driver’s seat.

May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 10 for identification?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Susan, I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 9 for identification.

When you walked by the car did you get a good look at the car?

A. I didn’t pay too much attention to it.

Q. Did the car appear to be the one that is shown in this Grand Jury Exhibit No. 9?

A. It looked similar to it, yes.

Q. I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 10 for identification.

Do you know what is shown in that photograph?

A. That is the thing I saw in the car.

Q. When you say “thing,” you are referring to a human being?

A. Yes, human being.

Q. You notice his head is leaning towards the passenger side, that is to the right?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that the way the individual looked on the night in question when you looked inside the car?

A. Yes.

Q. He was in approximately the same position?

A. Yes.

Q. Does this photograph—strike that.

Did Linda stay outside?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know where she was outside?

A. No, I don’t.

Q. What happened after you and Patricia Krenwinkel joined Tex inside the residence?

A. As I walked in Tex was in front of the couch and there was a man lying on the couch and his head was—the back of his head was facing me and he was facing the opposite direction. It was—I was standing here and he was lying with his head here and his feet extending that way.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Can you hold it just for a second, Susan.

Mr. Foreman, I have here a photograph of a female and male Caucasian.

May this photograph be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No.—I believe it is 10—11 for identification?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Susan, I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 11, a photograph of a female and a male Caucasian.

Do you recognize any of the two individuals shown in that photograph?

A. I believe I recognize both of them.

Q. Do you know who they are?

A. I think the woman is Abigail Folger and the man is a man by the name of Frykowski.

Q. The man being on the right in the photograph; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Is this the man that was lying on the couch?

A. By the appearance of his face. I can’t tell by the clothes. He wasn’t wearing these.

Q. By the appearance of his face does this appear to be the man who was lying on the couch when Tex approached the couch?

A. It appears to be, I can’t say for sure.

Q. What happened after Tex approached this man on the couch?

A. The man stretched his arms and woke up. I guess he thought some of his friends were coming from somewhere. He said, “What time is it?”

Q. Did Tex say anything in response to that?

A. Tex jumped in front of him and held a gun in his face and said, “Be quiet. Don’t move or you’re dead.”

Q. Did the man say anything to Tex when Tex said that?

A. He said something like, “Well, who are you and what are you doing here?”

Q. What did Tex say to that, if anything?

A. He said, “I am the Devil and I’m here to do the Devil’s business and where is your money?”

Q. What happened next?

A. He said, “My money is in the wallet on the desk.” And Tex told me to go over and look at the desk.

I went over and looked at the desk and I didn’t see a wallet and I told Tex I didn’t see one.

Q. What happened next?

A. Tex told me to go into the bedrooms—the other rooms, he didn’t say bedrooms—go in and see if there was anybody else in the house.

I went into two bedrooms, walked past one room and saw a woman sitting wearing glasses reading a book. She looked at me and smiled and I looked at her and smiled.

Q. Before you go any further, Susan, just hold it for one second. Susan, you say you looked into a room and you saw a woman reading something?

A. Yes.

Q. Looking at Grand Jury Exhibit No. 11, here, the one showing the woman and the man, is that the woman you saw inside the room?

A. It looks like her.

Q. Abigail Folger?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she say or do anything when you looked at her?

A. She looked at me, held her glasses down, and looked. I looked at her and waved my hand and smiled to her and went on to the next room and saw a man sitting with his back to me and the woman lying on the bed, apparently pregnant, and they were talking. Neither one of them saw me, and I walked back into the living room and acknowledged to Tex that there were three more people.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Foreman, I have here a photograph of a female Caucasian.

May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 12 for identification?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

MR. BUGLIOSI: I have another photograph of a male Caucasian.

May it be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 13 for identification?

THE FOREMAN: It may be so marked.

Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 12 for identification, Susan, and do you know who is shown in that photograph?

A. That is Sharon Tate.

Q. I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No.13 for identification.

Do you know who is shown in that photograph?

A. Jay Sebring.

Q. You indicated that when you went into the room after you saw Abigail Folger you said you went into another room and there was a woman lying on the bed, apparently pregnant, and a man on the bed; is that correct?

A. That’s right.

Q. Looking at Grand Jury Exhibit No. 12 for identification, is that the woman, Sharon Tate, you stated was lying on the bed?

A. Yes.

Q. Looking at Grand Jury Exhibit No. 13 for identification, a photograph of Jay Sebring, was he the one sitting on the edge of the bed?

A. I don’t know whether he was sitting on the edge of the bed. When I looked at him his back was turned to me, but that is the man.

Q. What happened next?

A. Tex told me to tie up the man on the couch.

Q. Now, before he told you that, I take it you reported back to him that you found three people in two rooms; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And then Tex told you to do what?

A. Tie up the man on the couch, and so I took a rope and very loosely tied the man’s hands.

Q. You say “the man on the couch,” are you referring to Mr. Frykowski, the man who is shown with the woman in Grand Jury Exhibit No. 11?

A. Yes.

Q. That I am pointing to right now?

A. Yes.

Q. So you attempted—or, you did tie Mr. Frykowski’s hands?

A. I had him put his hands together in a crisscross fashion, and his wrists. I have never been very good at tying knots and I wrapped the rope around his hands a couple of times and I was shaking and everything was happening so fast that I did a very poor job of tying him up.

Q. Is this the rope that was in the car?

A. Yes.

Q. When you left the Spahn Ranch?

A. Yes.

Q. After you tied Mr. Frykowski what did you do?

A. I stood back and Tex instructed me to go back and get the other three people.

Q. Did you, in fact, do so?

A. Yes.

Q. How did you accomplish that?

A. I walked back to the room and went into Abigail Folger’s bedroom, put a knife in front of her, and said, “Get up and go into the living room. Don’t ask me any questions. Just do what I say.”

She then proceeded to get up out of bed and walk down the hall and was met by Katie.

Q. “Katie” being Patricia Krenwinkel?

A. Yes, was met by Katie and I went into the other bedroom and stood to the left of the door and told them both to get up and go into the living room.

Q. When you say “both,” are you referring to Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring?

A. Yes.

Q. What was the expression on Abigail Folger’s face and Sharon Tate’s face and Jay Sebring’s face when you instructed them to go into the living room with the knife?

A. Shock.

Q. Did Jay Sebring say anything once he entered the living room?

A. He said, “What are you doing here?” and Tex told him to shut up.

Q. Did Tex tell Sebring to sit down at that time?

A. He told him to go over and sit down—this is—correct me on your notes—Jay Sebring proceeded to go over and sit down.

Tex told him to get back by the fireplace and lay down—no, he didn’t say—strike-that—he didn’t say lie down—

Q. Take your time. This is—I realize this is very difficult to remember, it happened several months ago. We have got a lot of time so just sit back and relax and try to think what happened.

A. Sharon said something to the effect that she is pregnant. Jay Sebring said, “Can’t you see she is pregnant, let her sit down.”

Q. Well, now, before Jay Sebring said that had Tex ordered Abigail and Sharon and Jay to do anything?

A. Yes, Tex ordered them all to lie down on their stomachs in front of the fireplace.

Q. He ordered Jay Sebring, Sharon Tate and Abigail Folger to lie down?

A. Yes, and Jay Sebring didn’t follow Tex’s orders and Tex shot him.

Q. Did you see Tex shoot Jay Sebring?

A. Yes.

Q. With the gun that he had taken from the Spahn Ranch?

A. Yes.

Q. What happened next?

A. Jay Sebring fell in front of the fireplace and Sharon and Abigail screamed.

Q. What happened next?

A. Then they went over and laid down next to Jay Sebring and Tex proceeded to tie a rope around Sebring’s neck, then to Sharon Tate’s neck, then to Abigail Folger’s neck and threw the rope—strike that we’ll come back to that.

Tex asked the two girls if they had any money, Sharon Folger—or, Abigail Folger said she did. Tex told me to take her into the bedroom. Abigail Folger walked into the bedroom. She reached into her purse and pulled out a wallet and said, “I only have seventy-two dollars, I just went to the bank yesterday,” and asked me if I wanted any of her credit cards and I shook my head no.

I took the money and put it in my pocket and walked her back to the living room where then Tex had me retie Frykowski with a towel that I had gotten from the bedroom.

Q. Did you in fact do that?

A. Yes, and I didn’t do a very good job of that either.

Q. After you retied Mr. Frykowski what is the next thing that happened?

A. Then Tex tied up Jay Sebring with a rope around the neck.

Q. Was that the rope that was in the car?

A. With the rope—that is not correct, excuse me—Abigail was standing and Sharon was sitting. Tex went over to Jay Sebring and bent down and viciously stabbed Jay Sebring in the back many times.

Q. With a knife?

A. With a knife. Then he told Sharon and Abigail to lie down next to him.

Q. Next to Jay Sebring?

A. Jay Sebring, and told Katie to turn off all the lights and the lights went out.

Q. What happened next?

A. There was still enough light from the outside lights so that we could see on the inside.

I looked over and I saw a dog in the window. The dog ran away.

And then he tied up Jay Sebring.

Q. “He,” you are talking about—

A. Tex tied up Jay Sebring and Abigail Folger and Sharon Tate.

Q. What part of the body did he tie?

A. The neck.

Q. What did he tie them up with?

A. A rope.

Q. This is the rope that was in the car?

A. Yes.

Q. And then after he tied Sharon Tate, Jay Sebring and Abigail Folger with the rope around their necks did he do anything with the rope?

A. Yes, he threw it over a high beam which he pulled which made Sharon and Abigail stand up so that they wouldn’t be choked to death, and then—

Q. Did Tex say anything at that point to all the people inside the residence?

A. I forgot who said it, but one of the victims said, “What are you going to do with us?” Tex said, “You are all going to die.” And at that time they began to plead for their lives.

Q. You say “they,” you mean Frykowski—

A. Fkykowski and Sharon and Abigail and Jay was dying on the floor.

Q. How did they plead for their lives?

What did they say, if you recall?

A. I don’t recall, I just know they were pleading, I would have been, too.

Q. What is the next thing that happened?

A. Then Tex ordered me to go over and kill Frykowski.

Q. What happened next?

A. I went over to him and raised my hand. I looked at him and hesitated.

Q. Did you have a knife in your hand at that time?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What happened next?

A. I hesitated long enough for the man to jump up, he knocked me down and I grabbed him as best I could and then it was a fight for my life as well as him fighting for his life.

Somehow he got hold of my hair and pulled it very hard and I was screaming for Tex to help me, or somebody to help me, and Frykowski, he was also screaming.

Somehow he got behind me and I had the knife in my right hand and I was—I was—I don’t know where I was at but I was just swinging with the knife and I remember hitting something four, five times repeatedly behind me. I didn’t see what it was that I was stabbing.

Q. But did it appear to be a human being?

A. I never stabbed a human being before but I just know it was going into something.

Q. Could it have been Frykowski?

A. It could have been Frykowski, it could have been a chair, I don’t know what it was.

Q. What happened next?

A. Then he got away from me. Mr. Frykowski got away from me. He started running towards the front door which was open and screaming bloody murder, yelling for his life, for somebody to come help him.

Tex went—that whole period right there is very confusing to me.

Q. Relax, Susan, and take your time.

What is the next thing that happened?

A. Frykowski was running and screaming. He got to the door and Tex hit him over the head.

Q. Do you know what he hit him over the head with?

A. I believe a gun butt.

Q. Do you know how many times he hit him with the gun butt, approximately?

A. I didn’t count the exact number of times.

Q. Quite a few times?

A. A couple of times.

Q. In addition to hitting Mr. Frykowski over the head with the gun butt did Tex do anything else to Mr. Frykowski at that point?

A. He was stabbing him as best he could because Frykowski was fighting.

Q. Tex was stabbing Frykowski with Tex’s knife?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, with respect to Tex hitting Frykowski over the head with this gun butt did anything happen to the handle of the gun at that point?

A. I believe it broke.

Q. How do you know it broke?

A. He told me later.

Q. Tex told you?

A. Yes.

Q. When did he tell you that?

A. When we were still in the house I believe he said, “The gun doesn’t work any more. I broke it over his head.”

Q. I am referring to the handle, now, did Tex say that the handle broke?

A. He just said the gun broke.

Q. As he was hitting Frykowski over the head?

A. Yes—I’m not sure as he was hitting Frykowski over the head. I just know later on—in what sequence, I don’t know—but he told me later that the gun was broken and wouldn’t work any more. The gun was no good.

Q. While Tex was hitting Frykowski over the head with the gun butt and stabbing Mr. Frykowski where were Jay Sebring, Sharon Tate and Abigail Folger?

A. Jay Sebring, I would believe, he was dead.

Q. Did he appear to be dead?

A. He appeared to be dead, lying on the floor.

Q. Lying on the floor?

A. Yes, although I heard moaning. I don’t know whether it came from Jay Sebring or not. Abigail Folger had gotten loose from the rope and was in a fight with Patricia Krenwinkel and—

Q. Going back just a little bit, before we get into that, after Tex stabbed and struck Frykowski did Tex do anything to Jay Sebring?

A. That could be when he went back—I already stated this—that could be when he went back and stabbed Frykowski. Now, all I know is that he stabbed Frykowski. I saw him.

THE FOREMAN: We have a Grand Juror that would like to be excused for just a couple of minutes. We will wait for you.

(A recess was taken.)

THE FOREMAN: You may continue, now.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Thank you, Mr. Foreman.

Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: If you recall, Susan, after Tex struck Frykowski and stabbed Frykowski did he do anything at that time to Jay Sebring?

A. Like I said earlier, that could be when he went back and stabbed Sebring.

Q. Sebring was lying down at that time?

A. Yes. In fact, I am almost positive that is when he did it because Katie was fighting with Abigail.

Q. Had Abigail gotten free from the rope at that time?

A. Yes, and Sharon Tate, I remember seeing her struggling with the rope.

Tex told me to take care of Sharon; and Katie was struggling with Abigail and was asking for help.

Q. Did you do anything to Sharon Tate at that point?

A. I went over and grabbed her by the hand and put my arm around her neck. She looked at me and begged to let me have her sit down and I was told before we even got there no matter what they beg don’t give them any leeway.

Anyway, I went over and put her down on the couch and looked into her face knowing that anything that I would say I was saying to myself, in a sense reassuring myself. I looked at her and said, “Woman, I have no mercy for you.” And I knew at that time I was talking to myself not to her.

Q. Did Sharon say anything about the baby at that point?

A. She said, “Please let me go. All I want to do is have my baby.”

Q. Had Sharon freed herself from the rope at that point?

A. Not to my knowledge. I believe she still had the rope around her. There was a lot of confusion going on and I sat there and held her while Tex went over to help Katie and I saw Katie be released from Abigail’s grip and I saw Tex stab Abigail Folger and just before he stabbed—maybe an instant before he stabbed her she looked at him and let her arms go and looked at all of us and said, “I give up, take me.”

Q. Abigail Folger said that?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you observe Frykowski—strike that.

You observed Tex strike Abigail—or, stab her several times with a knife?

A. Once only. She grabbed her middle section of her body and fell to the floor.

Q. You are talking about Abigail, now?

A. Yes, and then I saw Tex go back outside and then he came back inside and at that time Katie and I were standing by Sharon and she was out of her mind.

Q. Was she saying anything?

A. No.

Q. Was she screaming?

A. No.

Q. Were you still holding her hand at that point?

A. I was just standing in front of her.

Q. Did Tex do anything to Sharon Tate at that point?

A. Tex told me to kill her.

Q. To kill Sharon?

A. Yes, and I couldn’t. I just—in order to make a diversion so that Tex couldn’t see that I couldn’t kill her I grabbed her hand and held her arms and then I saw Tex stab her in the heart area around the chest.

Q. You saw Tex stab Sharon in the heart area?

A. Yes.

Q. With a knife?

A. Yes.

Q. What is the next thing that happened?

A. Then I saw Sharon fall to the floor off the couch and we went, all three of us, went out the front door.

Q. You, Katie, who is Patricia Krenwinkel, and Tex?

A. We all went out the front door and I saw Abigail Folger on the front lawn bent over falling onto the grass.

I don’t know how she—I didn’t see how she got outside. I didn’t see her go outside. I just saw her outside and I saw her falling and her nightgown was a seethrough nightgown and I saw blood on it and I saw Tex go over and stab her three or four—I don’t know how many times.

Q. You saw Tex stab Abigail three or four times?

A. Yes, While he was doing that Katie and I were looking for Linda because she wasn’t anywhere around. In fact, we started calling for her. We didn’t want to call too loud, and then Tex walked over to Frykowski and kicked him in the head.

Q. Where was Frykowski at that time?

A. On the front lawn away from the front door. Evidently he had moved, was still alive, and was still moving.

Q. Was he standing or lying down?

A. Lying with his back to me.

Q. He was lying down when Tex kicked him in the head?

A. Yes, and the body didn’t move very much. I believe it was dead at that time.

Then we walked up to the gate. We walked up to here and around in this area.

Q. You approached the—

A. No, excuse me, we walked to this area.

Q. This is right outside the residence?

A. Yes, we walked right over to this area here.

Q. Where it says “light” and, in parentheses, it says “blue”?

A. That is correct.

Q. Were you looking for Linda at that point?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you know where Linda was?

A. No.

Q. Where was Tex at that point?

A. He was walking towards Katie and me in this direction.

Q. What happened next?

A. Then Tex told me to go back into the house and write something on the door in one of the victim’s blood.

Q. Did he tell you what to write?

A. He said, “Write something that would shock the world.”

Something to that effect. I don’t even want to be quoted on that because what I just said came off the top of my head.

I had previously been involved in something similar to this where I saw political piggy written on the wall so that stuck very heavily in my mind.

I didn’t want to go back anywhere near the house and so I just blanked my mind and walked into the house and picked up the same towel that I had tied Frykowski up with and walked over to Sharon Tate’s body and she seemed to have been cut up a lot more than when I had last seen her. I never actually saw her face. Her hair was covering her face and there were sounds coming from her body but I was hearing so much and at that time I wasn’t hearing anything.

Q. What type of sounds were they?

A. Gurgling sounds like blood flowing into the body out of the heart.

Q. What did you do then?

A. I picked up the towel and turned my head and touched her chest and at the same time I knew she was pregnant and I knew that there was a living being inside of that body and I wanted to but I didn’t have the courage to go ahead and take it.

Q. When you say “go ahead and take it,” you mean cut it out?

A. That’s right. And I got the towel with Sharon Tate’s blood, walked over to the door and with the towel I wrote pig on the door.

Q. Was this the outside?

A. This was the outside of the front door.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Foreman, I have here a photograph of a door.

On the front of the door are the letters PIG apparently written in blood.

May this be marked Grand Jury Exhibit No. 14 for identification?

THE FOREMAN: Yes.

Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: I show you Grand Jury Exhibit No. 14 for identification.

Do you know what is shown on that photograph?

A. Yes.

Q. What is shown on the photograph?

A. It says “PIG” in Sharon Tate’s blood.

Q. Is this the “PIG” that you wrote on the outside of the front door?

A. Yes.

Q. You wrote this in blood; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. After you wrote the letters PIG on the outside of the front door what is the next thing that happened?

A. I held the towel in my hand and stood there for a few minutes. I did not know what to do.

I turned around and threw the towel towards the living room area towards where Sharon Tate and Jay Sebring were lying.

Q. Did you see where the towel landed?

A. No, I didn’t.

Q. What is the next thing that happened?

A. I walked out the front door at a very rapid pace up to Tex and Katie and Tex pushed the button that opened the front gate.

Q. Is this the electric button?

A. Yes, and we proceeded to walk down the hill to the car. When we got to the car we saw Linda Kasabian in the car.

She started the car and Tex ran up to her and said “What do you think you’re doing? Get over on the passenger side. Don’t do anything unless I tell you to do it.” Then we drove off.

Q. Now, you have indicated earlier, I believe, Susan, that you left some clothing at the gate before you entered the residence?

A. Yes, we picked those clothes up before we left.

Q. After you had done everything inside the residence you three left and you walked up to the gate and picked up the clothing again?

A. Yes.

Q. This was the clean pair of clothing?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you have blood all over your body at that time?

A. There was a possibility I could have. I didn’t look.

Q. What about the other three people?

A. There was a possibility they could have. I’m pretty sure Tex had a lot of blood on him.

Then we got in the car and as we were driving we changed our clothes inside the car.

Q. While the car was in motion you were changing your clothing; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Where did you drive?

A. We started to drive all over and we drove up to a house in some residential area—strike that.

We drove somewhere along Mulholland Drive, somewhere up in the canyon, I can’t say for sure where.

Q. What canyon are you referring to?

A. Benedict Canyon, Mulholland Canyon, I don’t know.

Q. What happened when you reached Mulholland Drive?

A. All we did was drive along and all of the weapons except for one weapon, I believe it was my knife, was handed to Linda who was sitting up in the front seat along with the gun and we drove along the road until we came to what looked like an embankment going down like a cliff with a mountain on one side and a cliff on the other.

Tex asked for something white, some sort of a piece of cloth. In other words, if there happened to be a car behind he could throw out the white rag as a diversionary.

We stopped two or three times. Linda threw away all the bloody clothes over the side of the hill along with the weapons at different intervals.

Q. Three different intervals?

A. Three or four different places, I don’t remember how many.

Q. Did Linda get out of the car on all of these occasions?

A. I think only on two of the occasions she got out of the car.

Q. To your knowledge, then, she threw the bloody clothing—

A. Yes.

Q:—away?

A. Yes.

Q. And what else, again?

A. All of the weapons except for one knife.

Q. The gun and the knives?

A. Yes, I knew on the way down the hill that I had lost a knife.

Q. Now, what is the next thing that happened after Linda threw the clothing and the weapons over the side of the highway?

A. We went to a house—or, to a street that looked like a dark street, it didn’t have any street lights on it.

Q. Why did you go there?

A. To wash.

Q. Wash what?

A. Ourselves.

Q. To wash the blood off of you?

A. Yes, only I didn’t know that until we actually got to the house. We were so much one with each other that we really didn’t need too many words spoken. Everything we did from the time he cut the poles to the time we got back to the ranch was spontaneous. It was done with no thought.

Q. So why were you looking for a house?

A. Evidently to wash off ourselves, the blood off ourselves, because that is what we did.

Q. Did you find a house?

A. Yes, we found a very dark house and there appeared to be nobody home.

Tex found the hose. We took and turned on the hose and took it out into the street and started washing ourselves off, our feet and our arms and our faces. We had already changed clothes, so—and I heard a man and a woman come out and they were yelling, “What is going on?”

Q. What house did they come out of?

A. This same house that we turned the water on, and the woman was yelling something about, “My husband belongs to the Los Angeles Police Department and he is going to see that—” blah, blah, and blah, blah, I don’t recall exactly what she said.

Q. Did she say Police Department?

A. I think she said Police Department, I’m not sure.

Q. All right, what is the next thing that happened?

A. And Tex looked at him and said, “Gee, I’m sorry, I didn’t think you were home. We were just walking around and wanted a drink of water. We didn’t mean to wake you up or disturb you.”

And the man looked down the street and said, “Is that your car?” And Tex said, “No, I told you we were just walking.” The man said, “I know that is your car. You better get in and get going.”

And at that time she said to get the license number and she was frantic and she started calling us filthy hippies and tramps and calling us girls sluts and prostitutes and all those crazy thing that people do.

Q. What is the next thing that happened?

A. Tex told us girls to get into the car, so we walked to the car and got in the car.

Q. What did the woman’s husband do at that point?

A. He reached in to get—to turn off—to get the keys and the car was already started, Tex had already started the car and the man reached in to turn off the car and Tex put the car in low and drove off very fast.

Q. Where did you go from there?

A. We drove around and ended up back at the ranch.

Q. Before you went to the ranch did you stop anywhere?

A. We stopped at the gas station.

Q. What did you do at the gas station?

A. Filled up the car with gas and went into the bathroom and checked for any other blood spots.

In my fight with Frykowski I had opened the sores that I had on my feet and my feet were bleeding and very sore.

Q. Where was this gasoline station located?

A. I think it was located on Sunset Boulevard.

Q. This gas station was where, again?

A. Somewhere on Sunset Boulevard.

Q. And after you went to the gas station did you go directly back to the ranch?

A. Yes.

Q. Approximately what time did you arrive back at the ranch?

A. I don’t know.

Q. Do you have any idea?

A. It was in the morning.

I remember being in the house—going back—being at the Tate house, I recall either hearing twelve chimes or seeing a clock that said twelve.

Q. When you were in the Tate residence?

A. When we were in the Tate residence, so we probably got back to the ranch somewhere around 2:00 o’clock.

Q. In the morning?

A. Yeah.

Q. When you arrived back at the ranch was Charlie Manson there?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Mr. Manson say anything to you?

A. He said, “What are you doing home so early?”

Q. Did he say anything else?

A. All the things that happened after that are very foggy to me. All I know is that I got out of the car. I had seen blood on the car at the gas station and I went into the kitchen and got a sponge and a rag and went back out to the car and wiped it off.

Q. The inside of the car?

A. The outside of the car, door handles and the steering wheel.

Q. What about the inside of the car?

A. No, I don’t think I did anything to the inside of the car. I may have but I don’t remember.

Q. Did you tell Manson what you had just done?

A. I didn’t personally, no.

Q. Did Tex tell Manson in your presence what you and Tex and the two girls had done?

A. Yes

Q. What did Tex tell Mr. Manson?

A. Basically just what we had done. That it all happened perfectly. There was a lot of—it happened very fast—a lot of panic, that we were panicked, and he described it, “Boy, it sure was helter-skelter.”

Q. Tex said this to Charlie?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, Susan, you have been referring to these people by their—by the name of Sharon Tate and Mr. Frykowski and Abigail Folger and Jay Sebring. At the time you were inside the residence with them did you know who they were?

A. I had no idea who they were.

Q. So you did not know their names at that time?

A. No, I just—when I first saw them my reaction was, “Wow, they sure are beautiful people.”

Q. When you first saw them?

A. Yes.

Q. When is the first time that you learned who those people were?

A. The next morning on the news and the TV.

Q. Where were you watching the television?

A. At the ranch in a trailer next to George Spahn’s house.

Q. Who was inside the trailer at that time?

A. Katie, Tex, Clem, myself. I think Kasabian, I’m not sure whether she was or not.

Q. As you were watching the television news coverage at the Spahn Ranch did anyone say anything inside the trailer?

A. “The Soul sure did pick a lulu but the Soul did a good job,” or something to do with the Soul, not meaning Charlie Manson picked a good one, meaning infinite Soul.

Q. Who said that?

A. I believe the words came from my mouth. I’m not sure because I don’t know for sure. I just know that something to that effect was said.

I would rather say it came from my mouth than put it on somebody else not knowing whether they said it or not.

Q. Did you say anything else when you learned who those four people were?

A. Something to the effect that it served its purpose.

Q. What had happened served its purpose?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you say anything else?

A. Right now I don’t remember. Do you have anything on your notes?

Q. Well, you can’t ask me any questions, Susan, I’m just trying to find out what happened to the best of your recollection.

Did you say why this had been done?

A. To instill fear into the establishment.

Q. Did you say anything about black people at that time?

A. Not at that time, no.

Q. Did you ever say anything about black people with respect to what took place at the Tate residence?

A. No.

Q. How did you feel about what you had just done? I am referring to when you got back to the Spahn Ranch.

A. I almost passed out. I felt as though I had just killed myself. I felt dead. I feel dead now.

Q. How was Charlie Manson acting when you arrived back at the Spahn Ranch, normally?

A. Charlie Manson changes from second to second. He can be anybody he wants to be. He can put an any face he wants to put on at any given moment.

Q. How about Tex how was he acting once you got back to the Spahn Ranch?

A. Nervous like he had just been through a traumatic experience.

Q. How about Patricia?

A. Patricia was very silent.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Mr. Foreman, the following testimony will relate to Counts VI and VII and VIII of the proposed indictment.

MR. STOVITZ: Mr. Foreman, may we take our afternoon recess at this time and reconvene at 1:00 o’clock?

THE FOREMAN: Yes, I would like to do that if it will work out for the best interest of the hearing.

MR. STOVITZ: I think it would be in the best interest.

THE FOREMAN: Before you leave I would like to give you this admonition:

You are admonished not to discuss or impart at any time outside of this Jury Room the questions that have been asked of you in regard to this matter, or your answers, until authorized by this Grand Jury or the Court to discuss or impart such matters.

You will understand that a violation of these instructions on your part will be the basis for the charge against you of contempt of court.

This admonition, of course, does not preclude you from discussing your legal rights with any legally-employed attorney, should you feel that your own personal rights are in any way in jeopardy.

THE WITNESS: In other words, what you just said—I was off—did you say I can discuss this?

THE FOREMAN: You can discuss it with your attorney. You can discuss it with your attorney. That is the only one that you can discuss anything with, is your attorney.

We are going to reconvene the Grand Jury at 1:00 o’clock, so you will be excused until 1:00 o’clock.

(The noon recess was taken.)

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