Susan Denice Atkins:
February 9, 1971 Testimony
FEBRUARY, 9 1971
SUSAN DENICE ATKINS,
a defendant herein, called as a witness on behalf of the defendants was examined and testified as follows:
BY MR. SHINN:
Q. Susan, were you personally involved in the killings of the Tate and LaBianca homicides on August 8th and 9th, 1969?
Q. I talked to you in jail last night, right?
Q. With Mr. Keith and Mr. Fitzgerald, is that correct?
Q. Along with Patricia Krenwinkel and Leslie Van Houten?
Q. And you told me and you told other defense attorneys that you wanted to tell the truth on the stand.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Calls for hearsay, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sustained.
BY MR. SHINN:
Q. Now, on August 8th, 1969, what other persons were with you?
A. In order—
Q. In any order you wish.
A. —in order for me at this moment to tell the truth, Mr. Bugliosi—
MR. BUGLIOSI: Nonresponsive, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: You can say it is nonresponsive. Do you want to hear it?
THE COURT: Answer the question, Miss Atkins.
THE WITNESS: May I clarify that, would you take me back to why?
BY MR. SHINN:
Q. Susan, will you please answer that question first and then I will ask you why, okay?
MR. SHINN: Your Honor, may I withdraw the last question, your Honor?
THE COURT: Very well.
MR. SHINN: Thank you.
BY MR. SHINN:
Q. We will get back to details a little later, Susan.
Now, where were you born, Susan?
A. San Gabriel.
Q. What year?
Q. Did you spend your childhood in San Gabriel?
Q. How long had you lived in San Gabriel?
A. I have been told six months.
Q. You lived there six months and then where did you move to?
A. I have been told to Millbray.
Q. So you lived in Millbray for approximately how many years?
Q. Did you go to school in Millbray?
Q. Now, where did you go to grammar school?
A. Parker Elementary School was the first school I ever attended in San Jose, California.
Q. Did you attend junior high school there too?
A. Cambria Park area.
Q. And when did you leave San Jose?
A. Approximately when I was 17, about three years after my mother died, about two years after my mother died.
Q. When did your mother die?
A. When I was 14.
Q. Susan, will you give us some information as to your family life with your mother and father while you were living at home?
A. As I look at it now, I was raised in a middleclass home, three bedrooms, two bathrooms, my father worked my mother worked. I had two brothers.
For a while it seemed like a very normal home to me, and as I was growing I began to see things that I did not understand, such as alcohol.
They would tell me one thing and do another and I could not understand that, and they had bills to pay, and they paid their bills as much as they paid their bills.
There was almost like a competition, as I look at it now, between my brother and myself for my mother’s attention, and my brother won, so I turned my attention to my father.
You will have to bear with me, I am a little nervous.
I was raised like a very normal daughter, the best my parents knew how.
I was told what to do and what not to do. I generally did what I was told not to do, more so than what I was told to do.
I got along pretty good with everyone, as much as I could get along with everyone, but I lacked attention.
Q. You lacked attention or you liked attention?
A. I liked attention and lacked it.
Q. What was your father’s occupation?
A. Carpenter, real estate man.
Q. Did your mother work?
Q. What did she do?
A. She worked for Dole Investigation Companies, and stuff like she would do surveys, and she would go all over the county and go from door to door and give people like samples of cereals and let them sample it, that is how cereals and new products are done, they are done on surveys, whether people like them or they don’t like them.
And she also worked in real estate.
She was not home too much.
Q. Did you go to church, Susan, when you were young?
Q. How long did you go to church?
A. I can recall the first, heaviest, most impressionable experience in church was when I was about four years old. I got straight A’s on all my lessons and got a white Bible or something for being a good girl and learning my lessons, and I went to church every Sunday on my own.
I would get up and I would get a ride and go with my neighbors to church.
I continued to go to church until I saw that what the minister was telling me in church was not what he was doing. He wasn’t living what he was speaking.
I went from church to church to church. I went from Protestant, Methodist, Baptist, Lutheran, Catholic, Jewish.
I went to every church I could go to to see what each church had to tell me.
And they all told me the same thing.
They would go to church to show each other off their new clothes on Easter.
They would go to church to ask God for God’s forgiveness for all their sins, and then go back out six days a week and continue to do what they did, and ask God for forgiveness.
I saw hypocrisy in the church, and I left the church.
Q. Did you have a happy or unhappy childhood with the family?
A. I would say I was generally happy, as much as I would let myself be.
As I look at it now, I was a very miserable young woman.
Q. So, did you leave home?
Q. At a later date?
Q. When did you leave home?
A. When I was 18. On my 18th birthday.
Q. In other words, did you finish high school?
A. No, I did not.
Q. You quit high school?
A. I completed my 11th year, and the dean of women at the school I was going to called me into her office and told me that I would have to repeat the 11th year in school.
And I told her—I believe I told her that I have not been in your schools, I have been sitting in your classrooms and listening to everything that has been said.
And I asked: How do you know what you are telling me is the truth?
And they would tell me: You are not supposed to ask those kinds of questions. You are just supposed to believe what we are telling you.
I told her: I haven’t been in your schools. I have been off in my own dream world, off on my own, looking out the window, like a lot of young kids do in school.
Q. You said your mother died. How old were you when your mother died?
A. About 14.
Q. 14 years?
Q. And did she die as a result of a sickness—
Q. —or accident, or what?
A. A sickness. Cancer. Leukemia.
Q. How long was she ill before she died?
A. Approximately a year.
Q. Was she in a hospital?
A. For quite a while, until, I think they said—my family said—something about they had run out of bills—they had run out of money to pay the bills, the insurance had run out on the hospitalization, and she had to come home for a period of nine weeks in order to redo, or whatever, to get the insurance policy back, to have her hospitalized and have the insurance pay for it.
And so, she came home.
In the beginning of her illness, they sent me away. They sent me to my aunt’s house in Whittier, California.
Q. Did your mother’s death affect you in any way?
Q. In what way?
A. She left me. I couldn’t understand why she died, and it hurt me.
And I realized that I had a father and two brothers and I was the only girl, the only woman in the house, and I had to take care of them.
And my grandmother, my father’s mother and my mother’s mother, told me that I had a very heavy responsibility, that I would have to cook, I would have to clean, I would have to take care of the house.
And I wanted to do it. It made me feel more important.
Q. You are finished?
So, then, now you left home. What did you do when you left home?
A. Well, when I left home, I was living in Los Banos, California.
Q. Is that near San Jose some place?
A. It is quite a ways from San Jose. It is North Central California, I guess.
And this is the year that I had quit school. It was a new school, a very small school.
And I left mainly because my father and all of my relatives kept telling me I wasn’t mature enough and the world was too big for me and I could not handle the streets, that I wouldn’t know what I would be getting into.
And the more they would be telling me that, the more I wanted to prove to myself, and to them, that I was big enough, and that I was smart enough and mature enough to go into the streets.
So I left and went to San Jose.
I got a job. And the man that gave me the job told me that he would have to take me up to San Francisco where I would be working.
And he took me up to San Francisco and he gave me an apartment with an older woman, about 36, 37 years old. I don’t remember what her name is. And left me in the apartment and told me to report to work.
And the work was telephone survey work.
Like I would call up people and ask them if they wanted to buy magazines. And if they told me “No,” I said, you know, I accepted that. And if they told me “Yes,” then I filled out a form and I gave it to someone else who would go out and pick up the money for the magazines.
I am sure everyone has had people call them on the telephone and ask them if they wanted to buy subscriptions to a certain magazine or group of magazines.
And I worked, but I didn’t get paid money.
The man paid for my apartment.
And during that time, when I first got the job, I found myself in San Francisco, a big city, scared. I didn’t have anybody, and I wouldn’t run back to my parents.
And I attempted suicide. But I knew that I really wasn’t attempting suicide, it was only something to get attention.
I took about 15 phenobarbitals. I saw it done on a television show one time. So I decided to do it for real.
I sat down. I had a telephone, so I called up an emergency center at a hospital and I told them I wanted to talk to somebody.
And they said, “Why?”
And I said, “Because I am going to die.”
And I talked to them long enough until I knew they had a trace on the telephone, and then I hung up the phone and I waited for them to come get me.
And by the time they came and got me, I was pretty well far out, loaded. I couldn’t feel my arms or my legs.
And they took me and gave me the attention that I wanted.
I quit that job because I wasn’t getting paid.
I did a lot of drinking. I used to, during that period of time, I was going into bars.
I was only 18 years old, but dressed up with makeup and my hair done up, in nylons, and being what I wanted to be, I could get into bars and I could drink.
And I’d sit around and I’d listen to the older men in the bars talk, and I’d learn from them things that I couldn’t even relate to now.
I ended up getting a job as a waitress about a half a block away from where I was staying.
I was staying in a hotel room and I was paying the wages of about $11 a week for the hotel room.
But before I went and actually got the job in the restaurant as a waitress, I ran away from San Francisco with a young man to Oregon.
Now, Susan, you say you started drinking when you were 18 years old?
A. Yes, uh-huh.
Q. Were you taking any type of drugs?
A. Not at that time.
I had been told by my parents and by people in school: Don’t take LSD. Don’t smoke marijuana. They are not good for you. They are habit forming and they will lead to heroin.
So, I believed it and I stayed away from it.
Q. But you did drink?
A. Yes. An excessive amount.
What did you drink? Beer? Wine?
A. All the sophisticated drinks, I would imagine you call them. Singapore Slings, Zombies, Slo Gin Fizzes, Grasshoppers. Things like that. Heavy alcohol.
Q. When you say drink a lot, would you get drunk?
A. Yes. To the point where I’d fall down.
Q. Now, you started to mention about someone you met?
I had been working as a waitress and trying to kind of get myself together, you know, make kind of a life for me.
I had met a young man in a bar and he was a IBM computer programmer puncher.
Q. What was his name?
A. Robert something. I don’t even remember his last name.
And he said he was in love with me and he wanted to marry me.
And I said “Okay.”
And we were starting to get it together.
And one night I was working in the restaurant and I heard my manager, the manager of the restaurant, my employer, talking about arresting six young men outside in the parking lot.
So, I went to kind of investigate.
And there were six young men out in the parking lot standing huddled. And I stepped out the door and I called to them and I told them that my manager is going to call the police on you, you are going to have to go because you are loitering.
And I went back in the restaurant, and they came into the restaurant.
And I saw—I just looked at one of them. And he was so pretty. He was so pretty to look at.
And they didn’t have enough money to stay and keep the minimum, pay the minimum in order to stay in a booth. So I took it upon myself to buy them stuff like—I think I bought one a piece of pie and one some French fries, of whatever, and let them stay, because I didn’t want to see them get arrested.
And I kept looking at one of them.
And then I had to leave the restaurant and go home because I was off work. And the one that I kept looking at followed me.
He asked as if he could walk me home. And I was afraid. I told him: Well, I only live up the block about three or four more buildings.
And he said: Well, I want to walk you home anyway.
So I let him walk me home.
And I spent the whole next day with him.
And then he asked me to go with him to his brand new 1966 Riviera.
And I went off with him, and later found out the car was stolen, and later found out that one of them was an ex-convict, a parole violator. He had jumped his parole.
Q. Now, Susan, you said you went with this man some place?
Q. After you met him at the Bar?
A. After I met him at the restaurant where I was working.
Q. Did you later on leave town with him?
Q. Where did you go?
A. First we went to Stockton.
Q. You say “we.” Were there two men?
A. Two men.
Q. Can you recall their names?
A. Cliff Taliaferro and Gun Sund.
Q. So, you left town with these two men?
Q. Where did you go from San Francisco?
A. We went to Cliff Taliaferro’s uncle’s house in Stockton.
And that is where I came into my first contact with marijuana.
Gus—I called him Al then—Al asked me if I wanted any of it.
And I told him: No. Take it away from me. You do what you want to do. I don’t want it. It is bad.
And that is basically where my head was at then.
Then we left Stockton because we wanted to leave Stockton and go to Oregon.
So, I went with them because I was in love with Al.
Did you have any intention of marrying one of the men?
Q. Which one?
Q. In other words, you were in love with Al?
A. Yes. Completely.
Q. And you were approximately about 18 years old at that time?
A. About 18.
Q. Then you went to Oregon; right?
Q. What happened in Oregon?
A. On the way to Oregon they were telling me that this young man was a parole violator, or something, and he was an ex-convict.
And Al told me he was an ex-convict. And I told him: I don’t care what you were or what you have done. I love you for you, right now.
And he said: Okay. If you want to come, come along.
So I went along.
And when we crossed the state line, they stopped at a gas station and something happened, and it kind of scared me.
Q. What happened, Susan?
A. Some money was taken.
Q. When you say some money was taken, what do you mean?
A. From the gas station.
Mr. Shinn, you must understand that I am here to tell the truth, but I don’t like to bring anyone else in it other than what I did.
Q. So, you don’t want to talk about it?
So, did anything else happen up in Oregon?
I was told that the automobile was stolen.
I was given a gun.
Q. By whom? who gave you the gun?
A. Al. I was told how to use it. He taught me how to load it and unload it. He taught me how to shoot it.
And he told me that where he came from, inside of a penitentiary, the first law inside a penitentiary, to him, is no snitching.
And he told me that he loved me and that he would do almost anything for me, and that everything that he was doing while we were together was that he could buy me a house and we could live together.
And I believed him, because I loved him.
Then his friend, his crime partner, so to speak, told me one day: You know too much and I don’t trust you. And you have a choice: To stay with me and Al, or turn around and take all your things and walk away and take a chance on getting shot in the back. Because I don’t like you.
So I stayed.
Q. Why did you stay?
A. I didn’t know what this man had in his head. I wasn’t going to take a chance on walking away and turning my back on him and getting shot in the back.
And I was too much in love with Al to leave Al.
Eventually it came down that they got rid of the automobile, after they told me it was stolen, and bought a, I think it was, 1955 Rambler, an old car.
And we moved out into the woods and we lived by a river in a tent. We had camping equipment. We had each other.
And that was all that was important to me. I didn’t know what was going to happen or why I was there. I was just there and I was doing what I was doing, and I enjoyed what I was doing.
At the same time, I knew what I was doing, by law, was wrong. But inside me, I didn’t feel it was wrong because I loved him and I would do anything for him.
Well, one day the battery went dead in the car and we left to go hitchhike into town, which was quite a few miles away, to buy a new battery.
And we came across four police cars. My first contact with the police.
This young man, Cliff Taliaferro, pulled me down into a ditch.
You must remember that we were out in the mountains up in Oregon in the hills, out in the boonies, so to speak.
And he pulled me down into a dry creek bed. And all I had on was cut offs and a T-shirt, and I had a coat—I believe I had a coat, I am not sure—and I had a gun in my coat pocket.
And the reason why I had the gun in my coat pocket was that there were a lot of snakes up there and I was afraid of snakes.
I told Al I was afraid of snakes, and he told me that if I ever saw a snake to shoot at it before the snake got me.
And when I was down in the ditch, I was told to keep my mouth shut, not to move.
And I kept my mouth shut and I didn’t move.
And I heard over the police radio car: These criminals are armed and dangerous. If they make one false move, shoot to kill.
Q. Was there a police car close by at that time?
A. There were four police cars close by and there were policemen everywhere with rifles and guns, and I had never seen anything like it before, and I was scared.
Q. Then what happened after that?
A. Then Al came back from wherever he came back from, and it was getting towards dark, and between us and the police there was a whole row of trees, some big huge pine trees, and it was like our cover.
I was told to move one step at a time in silence. And I moved one step at a time in silence with them.
And we made it across cow pastures and fields, with helicopters flying over.
I didn’t have time to think about what I was doing or where I was going or who I was with. I was just scared. And I knew that the police thought that I was armed and dangerous and would have shot and killed me if I made one false move to them.
Until then, I didn’t know what a false move was.
I was eventually arrested and taken to jail and was found guilty on six—carrying a concealed weapon I received ten days for, with credit for time served.
And I was arrested and found guilty for misdemeanor of receiving and keeping stolen property, and got six months suspended with three years probation.
I was extradited back to California.
Q. When you say extradited, they sent you to California?
A. Yes. They sent me to California to my aunt’s house.
Q. And you stayed there in San Jose?
A. For a while.
Q. For a while?
Q. Then where did you go from there?
A. Back to San Francisco.
Q. Did you get another job after that?
A. No. I went back to the young man that wanted to marry me who was a computer programmer, and he bought me an engagement ring, and he supported my apartment.
And I just left him one day. I gave him back the rings and left.
I went to North Beach in San Francisco and got a job as a topless go-go girl.
Q. Now, all during this time, Susan, were you using any type of drugs or were you still drinking heavily, or what?
A. I was drinking beer during the time I was up in Oregon.
When I got back, I met a young man on the street, and he asked me if I wanted to go try some marijuana.
Q. Did you?
It was just like the movies I saw in school. We went to an old hotel, up in an old dark dank room, and we rolled up a joint and we smoked it. And it felt good.
Q. Was that when you started to smoke marijuana?
Q. Then how often would you smoke marijuana after that?
A. Well, whenever it came to me.
It seemed that after I had my first taste of marijuana, people would come to me and say: Would you like to smoke some grass?
And I would say: Oh, yes.
All kinds of different people. It is hard for me to go back that far. It is like another whole world to me.
Q. So then in San Francisco did you stay in San Francisco?
A. Yeah, for a while.
Q. Where did you live in San Francisco?
A. All kinds of different places.
I worked for about six or seven months. I was paid about 150 to $200 a week and I had myself an apartment, and by then I had taken LSD.
I had heard about it, and my family kept telling me “You’re going downhill, you’re going downhill, you’re going downhill.” So I just went downhill.
I went all the way down to the bottom, and I walked down Market Street one day and I walked up to a hippie, what I thought was a hippie, and I asked him “Can you get me any LSD?”
And he looked at really funny.
I said, “I want to try it.”
He said “We will have to panhandle to get it.”
I said “Okay, we will all panhandle.”
“I never panhandled before, but I will panhandle with you.”
We went around and asked people for money and we got three dollars together and we went to the corner of Powell and Union Street and bought some, two purple wenches, and I experienced my first LSD trip in San Francisco.
And then LSD just started coming to me.
Q. When was this?
A. In 1967.
Q. Did you eventually end up in Haight-Asbury?
Q. In San Francisco?
A. Yes, right, when I was working, and I was dropping acid an awful lot, I would be up on the stage and I would be dancing and I would see all of these men looking at me and watching me dance and they were miserable.
And I was happy. I was beginning to feel happy inside, even though I was still lonely.
And so I just—I heard about Haight-Asbury, so I went to Haight-Asbury one day with about $50 on me.
I got dressed up, at that time I was like a weekend hippie. I worked during the week and made my money and during the weekend, on my days off, I would go to Haight-Asbury.
People would ask me for money and I would give them a dollar. I would give them $5. I think one time I gave someone $10, and I just started giving everything I had away on my own, and it made me feel good to give all away because I knew it was tying me down and making me miserable.
Q. So did you finally live in the Haight-Asbury District in San Francisco?
A. I saw a girl in Haight-Asbury one day that I went to school with in Los Banos, and she said she was living in a house on a corner with a whole bunch of people in a commune, and they were a family, and they all had little necklaces that they wore around their necks, made out of green beads, and they had one white bead in the center.
And I believe the name of the family was—the name doesn’t come to me, but they had their own name and she asked me to come see them, to come visit home.
So I came over and I visited with them, and everyone in the house was very loving, and every girl had her special guy, and every guy had his special girl, and they were all just loving each other.
They dealt dope to support themselves. They dealt marijuana, acid, speed, reds—I would imagine every kind of narcotics except maybe heroin. I never saw any heroin pass through the house.
I stayed. I met a young man and I stayed.
And then I left again, and by then I had given up my apartment and—on Hyde Street I had an apartment before that where I had my own television and my own radio, record player, clothes, everything I wanted, and I just did not want it any more.
And I moved to across the bay to Muir Beach, and I moved into a house with a man, and I took care of the house for them, and that was my stay.
That is what I had to do in order to stay.
And there was a lots and lots of acid there. I remember one time—well, by then I had been taking acid about every other day, every two or three days, and I would get high on hash and I would get high on grass and—
Q. How would acid affect you?
A. How would acid affect me?
Q. How would it make you feel?
A. How would it make me feel?
A. Each experience, that I have every experience under LSD, has been a completely different experience for me.
To explain one, it’s almost impossible.
Q. Okay. Now, did you at some time meet Mr. Manson up in San Francisco?
A. Yes, and it was a very strange experience.
Q. Okay, will you give us the circumstances under which you met Mr. Manson?
A. Well, I had left Muir Beach and had gone back to San Francisco in this house, this big brown house on Lyon Street, and my old man, the man I was staying with, the man that I thought I was so much in love with, was sent to jail and I heard two girls start talking about Charlie, and I did not pay too much attention about it, one of the girls’ name was Ella and the other’s name was Barbara.
And they seemed to bubble with effervescence inside everytime they mentioned him.
I did not think too much about that. I was too busy doing what I was doing.
One day I was in the kitchen cooking with a girl from Australia, an Ella, and I heard some guitar playing, and it did not sound like guitar records that we had in the house, so I went to go investigate and see what it was.
And Charlie was sitting down and he was playing the guitar and he was singing.
And I looked at him, and his voice was so pretty to listen to, and I think he was singing “The Shadow of Your Smile.”
And I went and I sat down, the only place to sit down left was on the floor.
There were a group of people around him listening to him sing, and I sat down and I listened to him and I liked what I heard.
And he stopped singing, and he said whatever he said. What he said is what he said.
And he looked at me and I looked at him and I said “Can I play your guitar?”
He handed me the guitar, and I held it and I knew I could not play it because I have never played a guitar before in my life.
I kind of looked at him funny.
He said “Yeah, you can play it if you want.”
I says “Okay,” and I plucked and then I realized for me, I was taking attention away from him, and I kind of scratched my head, and I handed back the guitar and sat and listened some more.
And he played some music, some more songs that he had sung.
I believe Patricia was there, I’m not sure. I think she was there somewhere in the background.
There were a lot of—a lot of people there.
And then he stopped playing and some music came on the records, and I like to dance, and he come up and he asked me if I wanted to dance, and I said okay.
And then he looked at me, and he said “You are stiff.”
I looked at him—nobody ever told me I was stiff before.
I says “Okay, I’m stiff,” and he kind of showed me motion, a very soft motion (indicating).
And then he left.
Q. Did you meet him again later?
A. Yeah, he came back, and the next time he come back—by then I asked the girls, “Well, who is he?”
I asked Ella and Barbara who he is, and they said his name is Charlie and he comes to San Francisco.
And they did not know where he come from, and they were talking about going away with him, and I saw how happy they were to even be talking about going away with him, and I knew I was not very happy, I was kind of happy, and I did what I did to make me feel good, but the happiness that I saw and the joy in them and the excitement that I saw in these girls, talking about going away with him, I kind of sat in the kitchen and I looked at Barbara and Ella and I said “Well, I want to go too.”
Q. So, did you finally go with Charlie and the girls?
A. Yeah, he never asked me to go. I just looked at him and he said “Well?”
And I said “Okay.”
And I ran down the stairs, because we were on the third floor of the house, and I ran down the stairs and I packed, I think my mother’s fur coat—or had I given it away by then?
No, my mother’s fur coat or something, and some of my mother’s treasures I had carried with me through all my travels on the streets, and two changes of clothes, put it in the suitcase, threw the suitcase on the bus.
Q. Now, you say a bus, what kind of a bus was it?
A. Well, at that time it was a yellow bus, it was a big old yellow school bus, and all of the seats were taken out of it, and there were pillows around it.
And there was a bed in the back, and there was a sink in it, and there was a big box on top of it.
And I had been in it—and I had been introduced at that time to Patricia, to Lynne Fromme, and to Mary, and Ella and Barbara got in the bus along with two or three guys.
Q. So in this bus you traveled around the state?
A. Yeah, we started traveling south.
Q. You traveled around and you finally ended up in Los Angeles?
Q. At the Spahn Ranch?
A. No, not immediately. We stopped off in Topanga Canyon at the spiral staircase house.
I went through mucho changes. Just so many changes.
I would see love coming from Patricia and Squeaky and Mary, and I loved Charlie.
He talked funny. He talked kind of—I would sit and scratch my head, but everything he said wasn’t important, it is what he did.
And I went through a lot of changes over the girls, because I wanted all of his attention, and he never gave me his attention. He would always give it to the other girls, and I wanted him to make love to me, and I think he made love to me once, and when we got to Topanga Canyon, and it felt good. I liked it.
Q. So then you ended up at Spahn Ranch later, correct?
A. Yeah, just about the time we were moving to Spahn Ranch we were up on, I think the name of the street was Summit, and old abandoned house, and we had been moved out of one house by the police, and moved into another one, and the police had just come up, I think the day before I went to Spahn Ranch, and came in and told us, “You’ve got to go; you’ve got to leave.”
And it was so strange because like when we first came and kind of met with the police in the school bus, we used to ask them in for coffee and zuzus—those are candies and anything that tastes good.
The police would look at us, kind of funny, and walk away; they would give us a ticket and they would just walk away, kind of bewildered.
And eventually I met someone, and I asked them, “Do you know any place where 15 people can stay?”
And he looked at me funny and he said, “Well, the only place I can think of is Spahn’s Ranch.”
I said, “Where is that?”
He said, “In the valley, up in the mountains.”
And I went back and I talked about it to Charlie and to the girls, and I decided I would go check out Spahn’s Ranch.
So I went and I checked out Spahn’s Ranch and I came back and I told them, “It’s real pretty; there’s trees and mountains.”
So we all got in the bus and went to Spahn’s.
Q. Did you know Linda Kasabian?
Q. When did you meet her, the approximate date?
A. I am absent in time, it was about—
Q. Was it before August 8, 1969?
Q. Approximately how many weeks or months before August 8, 1969?
A. How many months?
Q. Weeks, months, days?
A. Well, it comes before August.
Really, what comes before August.
A. What comes before that?
Q. June, July, August, September.
A. I would say around the middle of June.
Q. In the middle of June, did you say?
A. I think so, I’m not sure about time.
A. I know it was about two weeks, three weeks before Bobby Beausoleil was arrested.
Q. Okay now, where did you first meet Linda Kasabian?
A. At the ranch.
Q. She came to the ranch?
Q. And when she came, did she come alone?
A. The first time I saw Linda Kasabian she was in the presence of Gypsy, and she had just more or less thrown her baby at Katie in the trailer.
Q. You say “thrown her baby at Katie.”
What do you mean?
A. Well, Katie was sitting in the trailer and Linda Kasabian walked up the trailer steps, I think it was on the porch, and I had said hello to her or something—I may have not said words to her—and Gypsy was taking her up to the trailer.
And she just took Tanya, and kind of tossed her, handed her, but it was in this way (indicating). “Take care of her.”
And Katie just said, “Okay.”
Q. Okay now, so you met her and she had left the baby there.
So, did she do anything the next day or did she stay at the ranch with you?
A. About that time I was going through some pretty heavy changes.
I wanted to leave the ranch; it was getting too good to me, the peace, the quiet, the love was getting too good for me.
I was pretty discontent and Linda came and she told me she stole $5,000 and then she gave it to somebody to give to Charlie, but that she kept a thousand dollars for herself.
Q. Okay, now, when she first came to the ranch did you see her bring any drugs or marijuana?
A. She handed me a tab of acid.
Q. When you say a tab of acid—
Q. A tablet?
A. Just a little small, round tablet like an aspirin but smaller, like a saccarin pill.
Q. Did you ever drop acid or take acid with Linda Kasabian?
Q. Approximately how many times?
A. Gosh, four or five times.
After about the fourth time I haven’t had any acid since.
Q. Would you go out nights with Linda Kasabian?
Q. What did you do when you went out nights with her?
A. The first night Linda approached me Linda and I got pretty close, because she came from basically the same type of background I came from and we could relate to each other and talk about the streets and what was going on in the streets, and she asked me to go with her to steal some more money from Robert, or her husband or somebody.
She said there was more money where she got the money that she got.
She asked me to go with her, and I just looked at her and I said, “Well, okay, I’ll go with you.”
And as we were pretty loaded then, we had just come down off of an acid trip, and I was pretty open to her, and we hitchhiked down Topanga Canyon into old Topanga Canyon Lane, and she said, “You go in the house and knock on the door, you go in the house, sit down, smoke some grass with Crazy Charlie,”
The man had a big old, full beard. He was pretty.
“You talk to him; while you talk to him I will be getting the money.”
Q. Now, Susan, was anyone else present with you?
A. There was just Linda and myself.
Q. Linda and yourself?
A. And she evidently came to the window without the man seeing her, and signaled to me to come on.
So I told the man, “Well, I’ve got to get back to the ranch. It’s been nice talking to you, and by the way, if you see a friend of mine,”—I believe I mentioned her name was Kooky—“would you tell her I would like to have some material to sew with.”
I told him that as an excuse to having even been there to talk to him, because I had to have some reason to talk to him, so I used Kooky as an excuse to talk to him.
And when I got outside, Linda said the money was not there.
I asked her, I said, “What do you want it for?” She said, “So we can all go to the desert.”
And I looked at her and I said, “Well, I have never had to steal money.”
I said, “Money has always come to us at the ranch, it would come to me at the ranch in whatever form it comes. People had just given it.”
She said, “Well, what is mine is mine and what is theirs is mine, and I see no wrong in stealing, because if you have on a blue tie and I want it, I will take it.”
That is in essence what she explained.
I said, “Okay,” I said, “I will go for that.”
It didn’t make sense to me.
Q. So did she at that time take the $5,000?
A. She had taken the $5,000 before then, and that same night, it was still early, she said “Well, let’s go hitchhike around,” and I said “Okay.”
And we went and hitchhiked around.
And she taught me how to crawl around the outside of People’s houses, I would imagine we went up to Encino—some area out of the Valley towards Hollywood and we would—
She would take me to a house and she would say “Watch,” and she would creep along the windows and she would look up inside the windows to see if there were any lights on.
She only did this in houses where there were no lights. One time she told me to stay still and watch for her and if anyone came, to give her a call kind of like (demonstrating a whistle).
So that is what she gave me to call her, so I stayed put. She was gone for really a long time.
Q. Did you see how she got into the house?
A. I don’t even know whether she went into the house. She disappeared.
Q. Was she carrying a knife or some kind of screwdriver?
A. She had a knife with her. She always carried a knife with her.
I used to carry a knife with me when I would go on garbage runs all the time, whether it was a kitchen knife or whatever kind of knife, I would carry a knife with me when I would go on my garbage runs, to cut out bad things.
Q. Getting back to Linda, she was in the house now, correct?
A. I don’t know if she ever actually went into that particular house.
All I know is she came and took me by surprise, up behind me.
It kind of frightened me that she took me by surprise.
She said “Come on, let’s go,” and we walked around, and the next thing I knew we were looking inside cars, you know, touching cars and seeing if the car was locked.
If the car was not locked she and I both, she showed me how to do it, first we open up the car door, and not try to make any noise.
We would hit the glove compartment. If there wasn’t anything in it, she would wipe off the fingerprints and close the car door so I would go to the next car and I would do the next car the same way she did that car.
We both worked together in this. It was like no one pushed or pulled, it was just something that we did together, and I think I got a whole bunch of credit cards, and she got a whole bunch of credit cards.
Q. How often would you go out with Linda?
A. I went out with Linda about four or five times before—
Q. Would other girls go out with Linda Kasabian too, sometimes, and with you?
A. Leslie wanted to go. Leslie saw—like Leslie was just—
To me, Leslie was bubbling, and she was always into what everybody else was doing.
If someone else was doing something she wanted to do it too, and Leslie come to me and said “What are you doing?”
I said “Well, I don’t know what I’m doing. I’m just doing what I’m doing.”
She said “Let me come with you.”
I said, “Are you sure you want to come?”
She said “Yeah.”
I said “Okay.”
I admit I kind of pulled her.
A. I wanted her to come.
Q. Getting back to Linda Kasabian now, did Linda Kasabian meet Bobby Beausoleil at any time?
A. Yeah, she made love with Bobby a couple of times.
Q. When did she meet Bobby Beausoleil?
A. Bobby was always in and out of the ranch, and Bobby was kind of doing the thing in Hollywood with himself, he would come out to the ranch to see what we were doing so he could go back to Hollywood and do what he would be doing.
He come out one night and he met Linda. I think he made love to her. I believe she related to me he made love to her. She thought it was good and she was, well, it was so good.
Linda used to come to me with all kinds of things, about who she made love with and what kind of experience it was, and did I experience the same thing she experienced, et cetera, et cetera.
Q. So, did Linda Kasabian and Bobby Beausoleil kind of stick together, stay together?
A. Bobby was going through a lot of changes.
Linda and Bobby made love maybe once or twice and Bobby kind of got tired of her hanging on him, and he just stopped giving her attention.
But at the same time, he gave her attention. He just didn’t give her as much attention. And he turned his attention more towards his dune buggy or his motorcycle, or whatever it was that he was doing at the time.
Linda was more involved with Tex than she was with anybody at the ranch.
She would go off for a day or so and be gone all day. She would go down in the city.
She would pull Tex.
Like Tex, I have heard so many people say, you know, how Tex was. Well, how I saw Tex, Tex was always full of life and vibrant, just excited about everything. He would see something to be done and he would do it. Nobody would have to tell him what to do. He would just go do it.
He was crazy to me. He was so happy, he was crazy to me.
A. I couldn’t conceive of anybody being so happy.
Susan, directing your attention to August the 8th, 1969.
Do you remember that date?
Q. 1969, August the 8th?
Q. Now, you said in the beginning that you were involved, in these—
A. I was there.
Q. You were there; right?
Q. Now, before going, leaving the ranch on August the 8th, 1969, did you have conversation with anyone?
Q. Do you recall the conversation with the person you had?
Q. Who was that person?
A. This whole thing, what I am in this courtroom for, what Patricia and Leslie and Charles Manson are in this courtroom for, what Bobby Beausoleil is on death row for, he is on death row for me.
This whole thing started, when I killed Gary Hinman because he was going to hurt my love. And I just did it. I saw it to be done and I did it.
And I have tried to tell you all the truth for so long.
When I went to the Grand Jury, I lied, and I knew I lied, and I told Mr. Caballero I lied.
And he told me: It is too late now, Baby.
And I was put incommunicado. I couldn’t talk to anybody.
I have tried and tried and tried to tell you the truth, and now you all know.
Q. Okay, Susan.
Let’s take it step by step, Susan.
Now, August the 8th, 1969, you left the ranch with some people?
MR. SHINN: May we take the recess at this time?
THE WITNESS: Can’t you all see it?
I couldn’t take anything I couldn’t give, and I couldn’t give you anything that I couldn’t take.
MR. SHINN: Susan—your Honor, may we take the recess at this time, your Honor?
THE WITNESS: Oh, look at it, Mr. Bugliosi.
Your whole thing, man, is just gone, your whole
[Page 23,029 is missing from the trial transcript.]
FEBRUARY 9, 1971
THE COURT: All defendants, counsel and jurors are present.
You may continue, Mr. Shinn.
MR. SHINN: Thank you.
SUSAN DENICE ATKINS,
the witness on the stand at the time of the noon recess, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:
FURTHER DIRECT EXAMINATION
BY MR. SHINN:
Q. Susan, just before the lunch break you were talking about Hinman, Gary Hinman.
Q. Well, do you want to tell us about Gary Hinman?
A. Yes. I met Gary in 1968.
Q. Will you speak up a little louder, Susan?
A. I said I met Gary in 1968.
I believe it was the summer or just before winter of 1968 and I was around—it was around the same time I had met Bobby Beausoleil, and pretty close to the time after I was arrested in Mendocino and had come down back to Los Angeles.
Time and places right now are very foggy in my mind.
And Gary and I got along very, very well. I loved Gary as much as I loved myself.
And he would come over and he would visit at the ranch—not at the ranch, he would visit—I think we were living up on the Summit Road in a house, just before we had moved to the ranch, and Gary would bring us a few things, but he always seemed to hold back.
But that is all gone now.
I was at the ranch, I don’t know what day it was, I think it was a Sunday, but the day before that night, I believe it was a Saturday according to statistics or time or whatever, Bobby asked me to go ever to Gary’s house with him because he had given Gary $100 for a car.
Q. Now, when you say Bobby, you mean Bobby Beausoleil?
A. Yes, he had given Gary a hundred dollars for a car, and Gary said that he would have the pink slip.
And this is what was related to me through Bobby, and he asked me to go over with him to get the pink slip.
And I went over there with Bobby and I just was there, and the two guys were in the living room talking and I was outside.
I came back into the house and time is—like I got pictures of things that happened on Saturday, I know I answered the telephone at one time because Gary asked me to answer the telephone and say that he wasn’t at home and, you all know through other witnesses we have magical mystery tours.
Well, Gary seemed really upset.
He told me, “Tell them I’m not home; tell them I went to go see my mother in Colorado.”
And he was angry. He seemed mad.
And Bobby, Bobby’s attitude from where I was looking at it, was like Bobby was just, man, either give me the money or my car back.
And Gary was angry.
I remember answering the phone on Saturday and using this English accent, because I “magical mystery toured” all the time, and at the ranch I used to play an English maid or an English servant to an English queen, whatever.
And I answered the phone and I talked in an English accent.
I remember telling whoever it was—I don’t know who it was—that Gary wasn’t home, he went to his mother in Colorado and he wouldn’t be back for a while.
And I think the person asked if he could come stay.
And I told him no.
And Bobby and I—Bobby said: Come, on, let’s go.
So we left. I didn’t think too much about it. And I went back to the ranch and I went to sleep on Saturday night, and I did what I did on Sunday.
That Sunday is just not there in my head. I don’t remember what I did.
Q. Okay, Susan.
Did you later go back to Gary Hinman’s house?
Q. When was this?
A. That Sunday night, I believe.
It is like it could be a Monday, it could be a Tuesday, I don’t know; but I heard Sunday mentioned in connection with it.
Q. A couple of days later you went back to Gary Hinman’s house; is that correct?
A. The next day.
Q. And when you went to his house the next day, were there other persons with you?
Q. Who were those persons?
A. Bobby was with me. Bobby had come and asked me to go with him back to Gary Hinman’s house to try to get either the money or the car, and the pink slip.
Q. Anyone else?
And it is like—yes, there was someone else there.
Q. What is that person’s name?
Q. Anyone else?
But Leslie only went because Bobby asked her to go along for the ride, and Leslie was always doing whatever Bobby asked her to do.
If Bobby wanted her to go somewhere, or clean a motorcycle, or go down to Hollywood with him, she would go. She didn’t know what was going on.
And I really didn’t know what was going on.
All I knew was that Gary either owed us a hundred dollars or the car.
And we drove over there in, I believe it was, Johnny Swartz’s car.
And Bobby asked me to go upstairs and see if Gary was home, and if he was home, to call down and have them come up. Because I guess he was too lazy to walk up the stairs. I don’t know why he asked me to do it. I didn’t ask at the time.
And Gary was there.
And I says, “Hi.”
And he said, “Hello,” and he said, “Well, come on in.”
I said, “Just a minute, I will let Bobby and Leslie know you are here.”
And he said: Okay. I will put on coffee.
And he seemed in a much better attitude than he was the day before. He seemed a little friendlier. And like Gary and I had a lot of fun before when he used to come up to Summit or come up to the ranch. I was very close with Gary. Gary and I could talk. And I guess that is why Bobby took me along, because Bobby knew that Gary and I got along.
Well, Leslie and Bobby came up.
And I told Leslie, I says: The coffee is, you know—I figured everyone would like some coffee, so I took it upon myself to tell Leslie to make some coffee, and I showed her where the coffee was.
And I asked Gary if he had any grass.
And Bobby and Gary were kind of sitting down at the kitchen table talking about this car and this money and the pink slip. And I really didn’t pay too much attention to what they were saying because, about that time, I was getting some grass out from underneath the kitchen sink.
He had a little jar, and he told me where it was, and he said: We will roll some joints.
So, I was rolling some grass.
And Leslie and I, about that time the coffee was getting—the hot water—things are so foggy, it has been so long—Bobby and Gary started yelling at each other, and Gary was telling him: No, you are not going to get it, you are not going to get any of it, so you might as well just leave.
And then Gary looked at me and he said: Sadie get on the phone and call Charlie. Have Charlie come over here, because Bobby I can’t talk to any more. I can’t even talk sense to you.
And Gary seemed to go off.
So I went in the living room and I called up the ranch, and I don’t know whether I talked to Tex or who I talked to, or I talked to Charlie, I don’t know who I talked to.
It could have been any of the guys; it could have been Clem, for all I know right now.
And I said, “Would you tell Charlie to come on over to Gary’s? Gary wants him over here.”
And between the time after I had hung up—and I was told Charlie would be there in a little while—and between the time that I had called and the time that Charlie got there, Bobby and Gary had kind of calmed down, and they were kind of sitting there looking at each, other.
And I kind of looked at Leslie and I was, you know, drinking my coffee.
And I went back to listening, and Gary got mad and he says, “Get out, just go, don’t even wait for Charlie, just get out of here.”
Bobby says, “Hey, man, all we come for is our money or our car; I don’t want no hassle, all I want is the money or the car, man, how good is your word?
Something to that effect.
Gary said, “I’ll show you how good my word is, you just get out.”
And Bobby said, “No, I am not going until you give me my money or my car, one or the other.”
And Gary reached out to strike Bobby, and Bobby in self-defense reached up and hit Gary in the mouth, I think he broke a tooth.
Gary kind of fell back in the chair and about this time, I’m not used to violence at all, in any direction.
And I went to Gary and Leslie kind of went over to Bobby and told Bobby like, “Hey, man, cool it,” and I’m telling Gary like, “Like wow, man, you know,” and I went to the sink, I think, and I went to the refrigerator and I got a towel and some ice and I was putting it on his mouth because he was bleeding from where his tooth was knocked out.
And then there was a knock on the door, about two or three minutes later, and Gary went and answered the door and Charlie and Bruce come in.
And they all went into the living room, and I was in the kitchen with Leslie, and I didn’t hear nothing other than mumbling, and I wasn’t thinking about nothing.
I was too scared to be thinking about nothing, and it was violence, and I’m not used to violence.
And Charlie and Bruce and Bobby come back in the living room, and Gary come back in the kitchen, and Charlie had a piece of paper, and he folded it up, and was putting it in his pocket, and he said, “At least we got the pink slip, you know, we got the car, and I got the car keys, and it’s cool.”
And I think they were discussing who was going to take what car, and I don’t know for sure whether Charlie and Bruce drove up or dropped off, hitchhiked, or what, because I did not see them come in any car, and I did not see them leave in any car.
And it’s like Leslie and I were cleaning up the kitchen from the coffee, and she was washing the cups and cleaning off the stove, and I was drying the cups and putting them away.
And then Gary come in with a gun.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, may we approach the bench?
THE WITNESS: No, Mr. Kanarek, let me tell it, please.
THE COURT: You may not, Mr. Kanarek.
(To the witness.) Go ahead.
MR. KANAREK: I would like to insert—
THE WITNESS: I don’t care what you want to insert.
MR. KANAREK: —Aranda-Bruton, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: Aranda-Bruton yourself, Mr. Kanarek. Please!
THE COURT: Go ahead.
THE WITNESS: Gary come in with the gun and I turned around—it’s like I didn’t see the gun until I turned around, and I looked, and he had a gun and he was pointing it and he was shaking it and he was mad.
He said, “Charlie, you are not leaving here with that pink slip and you are not leaving here with the car.”
“You are not leaving here with nothing,” and he shot, and at the same time he shot I saw Charlie reach up and hit him on his head with I don’t know what it was, and Gary started bleeding.
Then Charlie said, “I’m splitting,” and he started running out of the house.
And Gary turned around and started going after him with the gun, and I had to—he was going to hurt him—he was going to shoot him in his back—I didn’t know what he was going to do, I just ran at him; I had my knife on me and I ran at him and I killed him.
I had no choice. He was going to hurt my love, and anybody that hurts anything that I love, I want to protect him.
It was like I jumped on him, and the next thing I knew I’m back at the ranch.
I don’t know what happens in between that, I really don’t, I don’t remember nothing, all I know is Bobby was taken to jail for something that I did, and he was found guilty for something that I did and I cannot let him go to the gas chamber or sit up on death row for something that I did.
I am a woman and I’ve got to face up to what I did and accept what I did, and I’m doing that right now.
I don’t want no one carrying no weight of mine, I couldn’t have taken his life unless I could have gived it, and I had to give my life when I took his.
Just like here I am, I know, do what you do with me, yeah, I did it, for love, for love of my brother.
And anything I do with love, it was right at the time, and it was right at the time, it was right at the time for me.
You all can judge me accordingly.
But you’ve got an innocent man on death row, and you’ve got an innocent man sitting in here.
It is my conspiracy.
Q. Now, Sadie, getting back to August 8th, 1969—
A. Yeah, I was there, but there is a lot of things that led up to it.
When I got back to the ranch, all I knew was I was in a room, I don’t know how I got back to the ranch, I don’t know what happened between the time I first jumped on Gary to the time I got back to the ranch.
All I know is I was back at the ranch, and Leslie was telling Katie—
I was crying, I never killed anybody before, and I never killed nothing before.
I ran over a squirrel once when I was 17 years old and I cried.
And Katie and me and Leslie decided to keep it quiet, so we did whatever it was that we did.
I gave a car—I gave a car—I think it was the Volkswagen bus—to a motorcycle guy and I told him “Do what you do with it. Why don’t you take it and leave it in Watts? Get rid of it.”
Bobby took the Volvo and he was going to take it, and he was going to sell it. I don’t know what he was going to do with it, because I asked him to, and he was arrested and Bobby was riding my beef.
Q. Let me ask you a couple of questions back at the Hinman house, now, all right?
Q. Can you hear me?
Q. Now, after you stabbed Bobby Beausoleil—
A. I did not stab Bobby.
Q. I mean, Gary Hinman, you had a knife in your hand?
A. Yeah, I always carried a knife with me.
Q. Where was this knife, at your side, in your pocket, or where?
A. I had it on a pair of pants in a belt, and the knife was in like a sheath on my belt.
Q. You took that knife out and stabbed Gary Hinman?
A. I don’t know what I did, all I know is the next thing I know is I had a knife in Gary and he was yelling at me and the gun dropped.
I think I picked up the gun and hit him on the top of the head, I’m not sure.
Q. How many times did you stab Gary Hinman?
A. I don’t know, I really don’t know.
Q. Did Leslie or did Bobby Beausoleil try to help or do something for Gary Hinman?
A. I don’t know. I really don’t.
Q. Were you under drugs that night?
A. I had been smoking grass and I had been taking acid a couple of days before.
Q. And after you stabbed Gary Hinman you all left together immediately?
A. I don’t know how I left.
Q. You don’t remember anything happening after that?
A. I don’t remember anything after that until I was in Katie’s arms and crying.
I would give my life—
Q. Now, when you got back to the ranch, now, Sadie, did you have a conversation with Linda Kasabian?
A. Well, Katie and me and Leslie decided to keep it kind of quiet, you know, and we told Bobby, “Hey”—I didn’t tell him anything.
You know, I just said “Well”—
And everyone said, “Well, you know, just be cool and wait and see what happens.”
Q. Well, do you know whether or not anyone went back to the house later?
A. I don’t know.
Q. So then after you decided to keep it quiet—
A. It was almost like—have you ever seen anybody walking dead?
Q. Then did you later talk to Linda Kasabian?
A. Linda evidently had overheard a conversation the day we found out that Bobby was arrested for the murder of Gary Hinman.
Patti, Katie, Leslie and me was talking about “Well, what could we do,” you know.
“He ain’t got no bail,” and we was just talking about it.
I said to Leslie, “Well, I can’t let him do that; I can’t let him take the beef for me.”
And she said, “Well, he called me and he told me just to play cool.”
Q. Who called you?
A. Leslie told me that Bobby had called her at the ranch and told her to be, you know, to keep quiet.
So Leslie and Patti and me was talking—it was either in the trailer or the—it was in one of the buildings on the ranch, and I was kind of staying away in either the trailer or the shack, I wouldn’t come out very much.
And Linda would come and want to talk to me.
I told her “Go away, I don’t want to talk to anybody,” to go away, and Linda would go away.
And one day she come in, and Pat and me and Leslie was talking about what we was going to do to get Bobby out.
I could not let Bobby take a murder beef for me.
Linda walked in and she opened up the door. She walked in and she looked at me.
Then she looked at Katie; then she looked at Leslie and she said “I heard everything you said, everything!”
Q. This was Linda Kasabian, right?
A. Yes, and I looked at her and I said, “Now, what did you hear?”
She said, “I know you killed Gary. I just heard you say it!”
And that was one more—I, you know, I did not tell nobody except Katie. I always went to Katie and told Katie everything.
If I would get mad at somebody I would go and tell Katie.
If I wanted to go off down the road, I would go tell Katie.
Katie would look at me and say, “well, do what you do.”
And Leslie was upset, because it was her man, yes, he was her man was in jail for something that I did.
And Linda said, “Well, what do you want to do to get him out?”
Q. Linda said this?
A. Yeah, and I said, “Well, I don’t know, maybe we can get him a lawyer.”
And she said, “We don’t have any money. We can go out and steal and get some money.”
And I said, “Well, I will do anything—anything to get my brother out of jail.”
And at the same time I didn’t feel as if I could go to the police and tell them I did it. That was not the answer for me at the time.
And Linda come off with something like:
“Well, I know some people.”
She said, “You remember the thousand dollars that I had?”
I told her, “Yeah.”
She said, “Well, I went up to some people in Beverly Hills and asked them for some “M”—some new kind of drug, MDA. LSD, oh, anyway, she went up to buy something from them and they burnt her for the bread.
And she was angry.
And I looked her like, wait a minute, you know.
And I looked at Katie and I looked at Leslie.
And Leslie asked me, she said, “Well, Sadie, what would you do to help Bobby get out of jail?”
And I said: Well, wow, anything, anything I would do anything to get my brother out of jail. I will put myself where I belong.
And it just happened.
Q. What do you mean it just happened?
A. It just happened.
Q. Well, you had a conversation with Linda Kasabian, Leslie—
Q. And Patricia Krenwinkel; is that correct?
A. Yes. But the conversation wasn’t a conversation-conversation. It was just ideas thrown back and forth in between us.
And Leslie just kept saying: Well, what would you do?
And I’d say that I’d do anything.
And Linda said: I know what you can do. Make it look like somebody else did it. Copy it.
And it hit me. I threw the thought out of my head as soon as she said it.
Then she said: Well, the only solution, then, is to get money for a lawyer.
So I said: Okay.
Q. Now, let’s go into more detail as to what Linda Kasabian said to you about getting Bobby out.
A. I really do not remember word-for-word.
It is just, can you look at from where I am coming from, man.
Word-for-word, conversation, I don’t remember word-for-word conversation I had an hour ago.
Q. Well, just give us the substance of the conversation.
A. The substance of what she said is: What would you do?
I know some things that we can do to get him out. We can make some more of the same.
Q. In other words, she said go out and kill other people?
A. She didn’t say it in those exact words to me.
She said: Just make it look like more of the same.
She said: If you will make lots of them, they will cut Bobby loose and everybody will go free.
I couldn’t accept that right away. Until I dropped some acid with her, and she told me to get a knife and change of clothes.
Q. Did she say to you—I mean, did Linda Kasabian say to you, tell you, about these people in Beverly Hills?
A. She just said that they had burned her for some money.
Q. In other words, they took her money and didn’t deliver any narcotics or drugs?
A. That is what she said.
Q. And did she say she knew where these people lived?
A. Yes. Evidently she did. Evidently she knew where they lived because she went up there.
Q. So, after you talked to Linda Kasabian and the other girls about trying to get Bobby out, did you all decide to do something?
A. If you can conceive of not deciding to do anything and just doing it.
Now, then, you got in an automobile to go some place?
A. I dropped some acid. Linda gave me a tab of acid.
She told me: I just gave Tex some STP. And she says: Go get Katie.
So I went and I got Katie.
And Katie come. Linda come.
Tex was in the car, and I got in the car, and Linda got in the car, and we drove off.
And I don’t know where we drove.
Now, Sadie, let’s go back.
How many people got into the automobile?
Name the people that got into the automobile?
A. Tex, Linda, Katie and myself.
Q. Is that all four?
Q. Who was driving?
A. Linda—excuse me—Tex, and Linda was telling Tex where to go.
Q. Was Tex driving and Linda in the front seat?
A. Yes. On the passenger side.
And Katie and I were in the back.
Q. Now, before you left the ranch, were you dressed in a certain way?
A. I had on dark clothes.
Q. You had on dark clothes?
A. Yes. Because—
Q. Did you take any other clothes with you?
A. I had clothes with me.
Q. You had on the dark clothes.
Now, what kind of clothes did you take with you?
A. I don’t know what kind they were. A skirt, a blouse, whatever.
Q. Did you carry any weapons that night?
A. I had my knife. I always carried my knife.
Q. What about Katie, Linda and Tex?
A. I don’t know what they had. I only know what I did. That is all I knew is what I have done.
So, now, you got in the automobile; correct?
Q. And do you know what direction you headed for? Do you remember?
A. I was stoned, man, on acid; been stoned on acid.
Q. Was there any conversation between Linda and Tex?
A. Just directions. Just directions.
And in essence, what the conversation was, was Linda was going to go get her money back.
Q. In other words, Linda knew where this house was located; is that correct?
Q. Was there anything else that Linda said?
A. I don’t know what Linda said, I don’t know what Tex said, I do not remember what Katie said.
All I know is what I did.
Now, let’s take it step by step.
So you drove some place. Did you finally stop some place?
Q. Do you know where you stopped?
A. At a house. I have been told it was 10050 Cielo Drive.
Q. You found that out later; correct?
Q. So, in other words, Linda directed Tex to this particular house?
Q. Then did you park any place?
A. Just outside the gate.
Q. How far away from the gate? Half a block? A block? A quarter of a block?
A. Right next to the gate.
Q. Were there any lights around?
Q. Where was the light located?
A. Just down the street there was some houses. It was kind of dark, and there were some houses, there were lights on the other side of the gate.
Q. All right.
What happened as soon as the car stopped?
A. Tex got out and Linda got out and Pat got out and I got out.
Q. Was anything said when you all got out of the automobile?
Q. No one said a word?
A. Not that I could heard. I was stoned.
Q. Now, do you recall, after you all got out of the automobile now, what happened next?
A. I saw Tex climb up a telephone pole.
Q. Did he have anything in his hands?
Q. What did he have in his hands?
A. I have been told it was a spoke cutter.
Q. I am asking you about that night.
A. What I saw.
A. I don’t know what he had in his hand. It could have been anything. I didn’t relate to words that night. When I am on acid, words I don’t relate to.
Q. In other words, Tex might have said something before he climbed up the pole, which you don’t recall; right?
Q. And you don’t know what he had in his hand; correct?
Q. Now, what is the next thing that happened after he climbed the pole?
A. Some wires fell.
Q. When these wires fell, where were you?
A. On the driver’s side of the car looking at and tripping on the leaves on the side of the hill. And I heard a splat and I turned around and the wires were down.
Where was Linda?
A. On the passenger’s side of the car facing the pole.
Q. And where was Patricia Krenwinkel?
A. On the driver’s side with me.
You were just standing there, or were you guys looking up at the pole?
A. I wasn’t paying——I was looking at everything, everything.
Q. Now, what happened after he cut the wires?
A. We got back in the car.
Q. You mean you all got back into the automobile after Tex came down from the pole?
Q. Then what happened after you all got in the automobile?
A. We drove down the hill.
Q. How far down the hill?
A. The bottom of the hill.
Q. How far is that? About one block? Two blocks? If you can remember.
A. Well, there was the bottom of the hill and the top of the hill, and we landed at the bottom of the hill and parked the car.
After you parked the car, what happened?
A. Everyone got out, and then I got out.
Now, was there any conversation while you were driving down the hill?
Q. Either by you, Tex or—
A. Not that I can recall.
Q. There was no conversation that you can recall; is that correct?
Q. When you got down to the bottom of the hill, did Tex say “Let’s get out,” and did you all get out?
A. Just motion. We just did what we did, got out of the car.
When you are on acid—when I am on acid and I am with people, I don’t need words to relate to motions.
Was anyone else on acid that night, if you know?
A. Linda had told me that she had given Tex STP, and that is like—I have had STP once.
Q. Okay. Now, what about Linda?
A. I don’t know what Linda was on. I only know what I did.
Now, when you all got out of the automobile, did anyone say anything at that time?
A. Everyone just started walking up the hill, and I went on up the hill with them.
Before you started walking up the hill, did Linda, or did anyone, say “That is the house we are going to go into”?
Linda seemed to know pretty much what she was doing.
Q. When you were walking up the hill, who was in front and who was in back?
A. When we walked up the hill?
A. I know I was far behind.
Q. Who was in the front of the line?
A. It wasn’t like a line. It was just we were walking up the hill.
Tex was where Tex was, Katie was where Katie was, and Linda was where Linda was.
We were walking up the hill.
I know that Linda and Tex were more up in front than I was.
Q. You say Linda and Tex were more up in the front?
Q. You were in the back?
Q. What happened after they walked up the hill?
A. Linda climbed over a fence.
Q. Wait a minute.
Was there a fence there?
Q. Did you see the fence?
Q. How high was the fence?
A. Six feet tall. But it went up into like a hillside and it got smaller as you climbed up the hill the fence would meet the land, and it got smaller.
And Linda climbed over it.
Q. How wide was the fence?
Q. Yes, approximately, if you know?
A. As big as the driveway, you know.
You all got the diagrams. I don’t know.
Q. Do you recall the color of the fence?
Q. Yes. Black? White?
A. It was a wire fence.
Q. Was it a chicken wire fence?
A. I don’t remember what kind it was. I was only there one time.
Q. But it was a fence?
A. Yes, a fence.
Q. When you got in front of the fence did anyone say anything?
A. Linda climbed over the fence and said “Come on.”
So then I climbed over the fence, and then Katie climbed over the fence, and then Tex climbed over the fence.
Q. You climbed over the fence, or did you climb over bushes? Do you recall?
A. Well, you had to get up into the bushes to get over the fence, so that you wouldn’t have to climb real high because the fence, like I said, got smaller, shorter, lower, or whatever, as you go up the side of the hill.
Q. Now, did you see anyone with any weapons at that time?
I only knew I had my knife on me.
Q. Did you see anyone carrying anything?
A. Carrying anything?
Did I see anyone carrying anything?
I was only paying attention to what I was doing.
Q. Well, did you see anyone carry a rope?
A. Someone could have carried a rope.
Q. But you don’t remember?
A. I don’t see anyone carrying a rope.
Q. So, now you all climbed over the fence.
Who went over the fence first?
Q. Then Tex?
A. Me, then Katie, then Tex.
Q. Was anything said at that point before climbing over the fence?
A. Linda climbed over the fence and said “Come on.”
Q. In other words, Linda knew this house?
Q. Did she say to you: This is the house we are going to go into?
A. She didn’t say: This is the house we are going to go into.
She just said “Come on.”
Now, you climbed over the fence, and what happened after you climbed over the fence?
A. I landed in some bushes on the other side of the fence.
And a car came.
Q. Wait a minute.
You hid in some bushes. Where was Tex?
A. I didn’t hide in any bushes. I landed in bushes.
Q. You landed in bushes?
Q. Did the rest of them land in the bushes with you?
A. Evidently. We all climbed over in the same spot.
Q. Then the next thing you knew was headlights coming?
Q. Then what happened?
A. Tex went crazy.
Q. What do you mean by Tex went crazy?
A. Tex went crazy.
He went out and said “Stop.”
I heard a gun go off four times before we ever got into the house.
He just went off. I don’t know what made him do it. I don’t know what motivated him to do it. He just went crazy.
Q. Now, you didn’t see this gun before, did you?
Q. You heard four shots?
A. Uh-huh, yes.
Q. You, Katie and Linda were in the bushes when you heard these four shots?
A. I don’t know where Linda and Katie were. I only know I was in the bushes.
Q. How far was this car away? How far was the car away from you?
A. I don’t know how far away it was.
I wasn’t paying any attention to how far away anything was.
Q. Did you see the automobile?
A. I saw the headlights.
Q. That is all you could see were the headlights; correct?
A. That is all I saw.
So, then, what happened after you heard the four shots?
A. I got up and I went to go see what Tex was doing.
Q. Did you walk towards the automobile?
Q. Now, where was Katie and Linda?
A. I don’t know where Katie and Linda were.
They could have been in front of me, next to me, on top of me I don’t know where they were.
Q. Did they finally come to the automobile with you?
A. Everything is very foggy, Daye.
Q. Yes. Remember what you can remember.
A. I am telling you what I remember.
I only remember what I did, as much as I can remember what I did.
Q. So, you went to the automobile.
Was Tex there?
Q. Was there a conversation?
Q. Nothing was said?
Q. Now, at that point, you walked up to the automobile and Tex was there?
Q. Did you see anything in Tex’s hand?
A. If I did I wouldn’t have related to it then.
It could have been a gun, it could have been a piece of wood, it could have been a stick, it could have been anything.
All I know is I heard four shots.
Q. So, you don’t recall if whether or not you saw a gun or a knife in Tex’s hand when you walked up to the automobile after you heard the four shots; is that correct?
A. All I know is that I walked up to the car, and the next thing I know that I did, I crawled in a window—no, I didn’t crawl in a window—
Q. Sadie, Sadie. Let’s go step by step.
Before you crawled in the window now.
Did Tex say anything to you at that time, before you walked up to the automobile?
A. No. There were no words spoken, Daye.
Q. What did Tex do as soon as you walked up to the automobile?
A. The next thing I know is I was walking toward the house, and Linda was there.
And Linda said, “Wait here. I will go around back.”
I have seen Linda do this before in other places I have been to with her.
Q. So now, you and Tex walked up near the house and Linda was there; is that correct?
Q. And then Linda told you to wait?
Q. Then she went around the house?
Q. Were there any lights on around there at that time?
There was a light on one building to my right, and there were lights on in the big long building.
Q. Were there any lights in the house?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. Did you hear people talking in the house?
Q. Was there a radio on, television on?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. You don’t recall?
So, now, Linda is walking behind the house; correct?
Q. She told you to wait?
Q. How long did you wait—
Q. Wait a minute. Let me ask you this—
A. Long? I don’t know how long.
Q. Did she finally come back?
Q. Soon? Very soon?
A. I don’t know how soon, Daye.
You are trying to make me relate to time.
I don’t relate to time.
So, when she came back—
A. She came back, yes.
Q. —did she say anything?
A. “Go in this window. There aren’t any doors open in the back.”
Q. When she said, “Go in this window,” did she point to a window?
Daye, all I know is what I did. You understand that?
Now, just go slow.
A. Everything just went off. It happened.
Q. Now, Sadie, Linda came back and told you to go in this window; right?
Q. All right.
A. She didn’t say it to anybody. She just said, “Go in this window.”
So, did you or the others go towards that window walk towards that window?
A. We were already at the window.
Q. All right. You are at the window now.
A. That is where we walked to to begin with, at the window.
Q. So what happened next? You are at the window. What happened after that?
A. Tex went in the window.
Q. Was there a screen on the window?
A. I don’t remember if there was a screen on the window.
Q. You don’t remember whether or not anyone cut a screen on the window?
Mr. Bugliosi said there was a screen on the window. He has said there was a screen on the window. So, I guess there was a screen on the window.
Q. No. I am asking you what you remember.
A. I do not remember.
Q. Not what Mr. Bugliosi says.
A. No, I do not remember.
Q. So, did you finally crawl into the window?
A. I didn’t go in through the window, I went in through the front door.
Q. Who went in the window?
Q. And you and the other girls waited outside?
Q. Was there anything said when Tex went in through the window, do you remember?
A. No, nothing was said.
Q. So, he just stood in front of the window then; is that right?
A. Kind of crouched down.
Q. Then what happened next?
A. The front door opened.
Q. Did you walk around to the front door, or did you wait at the window?
A. The front door was right to my left.
Q. In other words, the door was right near the window; correct?
And there were bushes right along the side.
Q. And the next thing you knew, the door opened, the front door opened?
Q. Did Tex come out?
He said, “Come in.”
Q. Then all three of you—I mean, then the four of you went into the house?
A. I went in.
Q. Who else went in?
A. Linda went in and Katie went in.
There was a man lying on a couch.
Q. So, now, Sadie, you are saying that Katie, Linda, Tex and yourself went into the house; correct?
Q. Now, when you stepped into the house, did Tex say anything?
Q. No words were spoken?
Q. What was the first thing you did when you entered the house?
A. Saw a man lying on a couch.
Now, when you saw this man lying on the couch where was Tex and the other people?
A. I don’t know. They were there.
Q. Behind you? Beside you? In front of you?
A. I don’t know.
I just saw a man lying on a couch. That is all I remember.
Q. Was the house dark, or was there a light in the house?
A. The house was like the house was, I don’t remember.
Q. You don’t recall whether or not there was a light in the house?
Q. Do you recall whether or not there was a television playing or radio playing in the house?
A. I didn’t hear any music. The house was quiet.
Q. Were there any lights in any other room of the house when you first walked in?
A. Everything was lit up.
Q. Lit up?
Q. You mean, there were lights?
A. I saw a lot of color.
It could have been lit up from a light bulb, it could have been lit up from my imagination. I don’t know what it was lit up from. It was just lit up.
Q. So, now you saw this man lying on a couch; is that correct?
Q. Did anyone say anything at that point to you?
A. A man stretched—he said “What time is it?”
Q. Wait a minute, did Tex say anything, did the rest of the girls say anything when you saw this man on the couch?
A. No, I just moved behind the couch and Tex moved in front of the couch.
Q. Where was your knife at that time?
A. In my hand.
Q. What kind of knife did you carry?
A. A buck knife, Bowie knife—no, it was not a Bowie knife, it was a Buck knife.
MR. SHINN: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
MR. SHINN: I show you this Exhibit 39, do you see that?
Have you seen that knife before?
A. That is Linda Kasabian’s knife. She gave that knife to me that night because I lost mine.
Q. What kind of a knife did you carry?
A. The knife I had was—I had a blade about that long.
THE COURT: Put that knife back the way it was.
MR. SHINN: I wanted to get the dimensions, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: There was black tape wrapped around the handle.
BY MR. SHINN:
Q. You say your knife was approximately this long?
A. Yeah, somehow I got ahold of this knife and then Linda took my knife and I took hers.
Q. So you had your knife out?
A. I had it in my hand.
Q. Was the blade out?
A. My knife was not like that knife. It was just a straight knife.
The blade did not close.
It was the type of knife you would carry in a sheath.
Q. So now you saw—
A. It was just a knife.
Q. You saw this man on the couch and you stated that he said “What time is it?”
A. He said “What time is it?”
And then everything just happened.
Details I don’t know, I don’t know details. All I know is that—
Q. Are you saying that after you saw this man on the couch and he asked you what time is it, after that you don’t remember anything?
A. I remember bits and pieces. It’s like I can close my eyes and I can see bits and pieces of things that happened.
Q. Did you see what the other—
Q. —what your other—the other person was doing?
A. No, it was like I was doing it all.
Every motion I was doing, everything that happened, it was like I was doing it. That is what it is like when you are on acid, when I am on acid it’s like I am everything I see.
Q. Do you recall walking into the house?
A. Yes, I remember walking into the house, and I remember walking out of the house.
And I remember walking back in the house and looking at a woman lying on the floor dying.
And I remember picking up a towel and I wrote words on the door.
I remember closing my eyes and throwing the towel back into the house and walking out.
And I remember going through a gate that was open. I remember going to a car, getting in the car, and driving off.
Q. Okay, now, let’s go back into the house again. Do you remember any other details in the house?
A. No, not for sure, details.
Q. In other words, you don’t know what actually happened in the house, is that correct?
A. Well, you’ve got your pictures; you’ve got the scene after I left the house.
Q. I’m not talking about the pictures and the scene.
I want to know what you know.
A. I’m telling you what I know.
I’m telling you what I know.
I went there with Linda and Tex and Katie, according to Linda to get back the money that the people owed her for the dope that they did not give her, to help get Bobby a lawyer.
Q. Let me ask you this:
Do you remember how many people were in the house?
A. No, there were people running everywhere.
It was like—
Had you ever seen Outer Limits?
Q. Do you remember whether or not there were men or women in the house?
A. I remember seeing a woman lying on the floor and a man lying on the floor.
Q. Did, you hear any gunshots in the house?
A. It could have been gunshots in the house.
Q. But you don’t remember all the sounds were—all the sounds—
A. All the sounds I have ever heard, all the things that I saw was lying. Everything I have ever seen, all at one time.
Q. You don’t recall whether or not you stabbed anyone?
A. I don’t recall if I did. I know I said I did at one time, and that was a story.
Q. Okay now. Then you all left this house?
A. I know I left the house and I got in the car and I remember Katie was sitting next to me, and Linda was in the front seat and Tex was in the front seat.
Q. Did you notice whether or not you had any gun in your hands?
A. I know my foot hurt, and I know that my head hurt, not hurt, just—it was feeling there, not like pain.
It was just feeling as if something had happened.
And there was blood on my foot from like a cut.
Q. How about your hands, did you have any blood on your hands, if you remember?
A. I don’t remember.
Q. Do you recall what you did after you left this house?
A. I remember that I was getting a drink of water, and washing myself and being chased away and getting in a car.
And that is like a little picture.
Then I remember being back at the ranch.
Q. Now, before you went back to the ranch you stopped some place and took a drink of water?
A. Yeah, I think I stopped at a gas station.
I remember stopping three or four times on the way back to the ranch.
Linda got out of the car two times on the way back to the ranch.
Okay, now, before you went back to the ranch, did you stop any place up in the hills?
A. I remember getting out of the car a few times, and throwing something over.
Q. Okay, now, this area that you stopped to throw things over the side.
A. It was dark, it was dark; it was very dark.
Q. Did you hand Linda anything to throw over the side?
A. I didn’t hand Linda anything to throw over the side.
Q. You said she stopped twice?
Q. The first time now, what did she throw over the side?
A. I don’t know what she throwed over the side.
Q. How about the second time?
A. I don’t know what she threw over the second time.
There was two intervals within that much of each other (indicating by show of hands.)
Q. Okay now, you took a change of clothing, correct?
Q. Did you change your clothing?
A. I remember changing my clothes.
Q. When did you change your clothes?
A. I think in the car.
Q. When the car was moving or when it was stopped?
A. I don’t remember whether it was moving or stopped, I just know I changed my clothes.
Q. Do you know what happened to the clothes that you took, off?
A. No. It’s like, in truth as I am speaking, I am telling you what I remember.
Now, what I have made up in the past and said in the past—
Q. I will get that later. I am just asking you what you can remember now.
Q. Now what you said in the past that was not true or false, I don’t care about that.
I want to know now what you can remember.
A. No, I don’t.
Q. I want to know what you remember that happened on August 8, 1969.
A. I am telling you what I remember.
Q. Right, so then you stopped twice?
A. I stopped twice on the road. I remember stopping at a gas station.
Q. Now, after leaving this house, do you recall any conversation between—
A. I had no words, none.
Q. No one said anything?
A. If they did, I did not hear it.
Q. You didn’t say nothing then?
A. I had no words.
Q. Now, you stated that you stopped at a gas station.
Q. Do you know what area you stopped in?
Q. Was it light, was it dark?
A. Well, it was nighttime and there were lights on in the gas station.
Q. Was it a busy street or a quiet street?
A. Well, a lot of cars. It could have been anywhere, Daye.
Q. You don’t remember?
A. No, I don’t remember too much of anything after that.
Q. Okay, now, you got back to the ranch, right?
Q. Approximately—was this late at night, early in the morning?
A. Whatever time it was it was the time it was. It was still dark out.
Q. Okay, so when you went back to the ranch, when you drove up to the ranch, was there anybody there waiting for you?
Q. It was all quiet?
Q. Everyone was asleep?
Q. So what happened now after you got back to the ranch?
A. I went into the bunkhouse and laid down and went to sleep, more like passed out.
Q. Did anyone say anything when you got out of the automobile?
A. When I got out of the automobile?
A. I recall seeing something red on the hood of the car and I went to the kitchen without thinking about it, and got a sponge and came out and wiped down the car.
Q. The hood?
A. Yeah. I wiped down the outside of the car and the inside of the car.
Q. In other words—
A. And I don’t know what Katie or Linda or Tex did.
Q. In other words, when you stopped, when you all got out at the ranch, Katie, Linda, Tex, didn’t say nothing?
Q. You can’t recall?
A. Not that I can hear. All sounds, like, I was hearing nothing and I was hearing everything and I was hearing nothing at the same time, if you can conceive of that.
I am trying to come to you with words that you can understand.
Q. So then you went to sleep?
A. I walked to the bunkhouse because that is where I like to sleep and I sat down and it was like I just wasn’t any more.
Q. Okay, now, when you walked into this bunkhouse was anyone else present?
A. If there was, I did not see him.
Q. In other words, you did not talk to no one?
A. No, I went in. As you walk into the bunkhouse it’s like one room and there is a room right off to the right and I went in there, and there was a bed and I sat down in the bed and I fell back and I closed my eyes and I was asleep.
I was gone. It was like I was dead.
I could not think about anything.
It was almost as if I passed out, blacked out.
Q. So when you got up the next morning did you see either Katie, Linda, Tex, anyone else?
A. No, not right away.
Q. Later did you see them?
A. I went into the trailer when I got out, and Barbara Hoyt was there, and she was watching television.
And it was like—was it real?
And if it was real, would it be on television? Was it my imagination?
So I said “Barbara, turn the channel,” because what was on was on, and if it wasn’t anything, I just wanted her to turn all the channels, and she turned the channel and it was on television.
And it was real.
I went out and I called for Katie. I told Katie to come, and Katie came and watched.
Tex came and watched, and Leslie walked in, and Leslie’s eyes just got so big.
I got up and walked out of the trailer.
I didn’t say anything.
And I went back to the back of the ranch and I kind of sat down all day in the woods, and then Linda came to me and said “You want some more acid?”
I said “Yeah, I think I need it.”
So I took another tab of acid. Only this is like she had given me acid to stash, so I went to the stash and I got some more acid for me.
Q. Did Linda say anything about the night before?
Q. Did anyone say anything about the night before?
A. No, not to me.
Q. Later did anyone say anything to you about the night before?
A. Later on that night.
Q. All right.
A. Linda said, “I want to go talk to Harold True,” and I asked her what for.
And she said, “Well, because he’s got some money.”
And I looked at her and I said, “Linda, okay.”
And it could have been at the front of the ranch at the back of the ranch—it could have been up in the mountains, it could have been anywhere on that ranch.
Katie came to me. We just looked at each other, and Leslie was with Katie, and Leslie said, “you went without me.”
And I looked at Leslie and I said, “You weren’t anywhere around. I couldn’t find you.”
She says, “Well, let me go.”
And it was dark. We got in the car.
Q. Okay, wait a minute.
Who got in the automobile?
A. Clem, Tex, Linda, Katie, Leslie and myself.
Q. So Clem, Tex, Linda, Katie, you say, got in the automobile?
A. Tex, Clem, Linda, Leslie, Katie and myself, yes
Q. Okay, now; before you got into the automobile did you have a conversation with anyone?
A. With anyone?
A. Did I talk with anyone?
Q. Did anyone say, “Let’s go for a ride”?
A. No. Not that I can recall.
Linda was driving.
Q. Well, in other words, before you got into the automobile.
A. Was anything said?
Q. Yes, by Linda, by Tex, or by Leslie or by Katie.
A. I just know that I got in the car. It was just there to do.
Conversations, today I don’t recall the exact conversations and I can’t you know—to assume that this was what was said, or to say this was what I think I remember.
If I do not remember for sure I am not going to say I think I remember this was said because I don’t know for sure what was said, all I know is that I got in the car.
Q. Okay, where were you sitting in the automobile?
A. In the passenger side on the far right down below, because there was no back seat in the car.
Q. Who was next to you?
Q. Who was driving?
Q. Where was Tex?
A. In the front seat on the right-hand side of the car, and Clem was in the middle.
Q. Anyone else?
A. Leslie was in the back seat on the far left.
Q. When you got into the automobile was anything said where you were going?
Q. Or where you were headed for?
A. No, no. Linda just started driving around.
Q. Did Linda at any time say anything?
A. Did Linda say anything?
Q. Yes, at any time when she was driving did she say anything?
A. She was talking up in front to Clem and Tex.
I was in the back seat and I was tired.
I remember falling asleep and waking up in intervals, and falling asleep and waking up in intervals and smoking a cigarette every now and then.
Q. Was it a long drive or a short drive?
A. A long relative to what? Time?
Q. In time.
A. I have no conception of time, Daye.
A. It could have been an instant, it could have been ten years.
Q. Okay, so you drove around. Did you finally stop some place?
A. Did I stop any place?
Q. Yes, did you guys stop some place?
A. Linda stopped once, looked, started the car again and drove on.
Q. She said no words?
A. Not to me, not directly to me, she didn’t talk to me directly at all.
Q. So now she started off again, right?
Q. She was driving?
Q. And then did she finally stop again some place?
A. When she did stop I woke up and I was in front of Harold True’s house.
Q. How do you know it was Harold True’s house?
A. I had been there before.
Q. How long ago?
A. Oh, a long time ago.
Q. How many times have you been to his house?
Q. Do you know what kind of house it is?
A. It was a two-story house. It was a big house.
Q. Do you know what the color of the house was?
A. No, it was a light-colored house and there was a little house next to it and then there was a house right next to that little house that had a great big huge fence, cement wall and all the way around it.
It was like it was a fortress.
Q. Okay, so when Linda stopped in front of Harold True’s house you recognized the house as Harold True’s house is that correct?
Q. Was anything said at that time?
A. Linda got out of the car.
THE COURT: We will take our recess at this time, Mr. Shinn.
Ladies and gentlemen, do not converse among yourselves or with anyone else or form or express an opinion regarding penalty until that issue is finally submitted to you.
The Court will recess for 15 minutes.
THE COURT: All defendants, counsel and jurors are present.
You may continue, Mr. Shinn.
MR. SHINN: Thank you, your Honor.
Q. Now, getting back to the August, the 8th of August, at the Tate residence.
Q. Now, you testified that a car was coming down the driveway and you heard four shots, now, did you later approach this automobile?
Q. Did you look inside the automobile?
MR. SHINN: May I approach the witness, your Honor?
THE COURT: You may.
BY MR. SHINN:
Q. I have here People’s Exhibit 42, I show you this picture.
Q. Now, when you looked into the automobile, is that what you saw?
A. From here up, because the door was not open.
Q. Are you indicating—
A. I was standing back.
Q. Are you indicating the door was closed?
Q. And all you saw was the other portion of the body from the chest up?
THE COURT: Will you identify that?
MR. SHINN: People’s 42, your Honor, yes.
THE WITNESS: Yes, that is what I saw.
BY MR. SHINN:
Q. I have here People’s Exhibit No. 4. I believe that shows the house.
Now, did you see that house before?
A. Yes, in fact right here is the window that we stood in and those were the—
It was like I was standing right here and Linda went around this way.
Q. Now, you pointed to a window that is open.
Are you indicating that is the window that you went in?
A. I didn’t go in that window. Tex went in that window and it was after Linda had come back around.
It was like I was crouched down below, and I was crouched.
Q. And where is the front door in relation to this window?
A. Right here (pointing).
Q. It’s to the left of the window then?
A. Yes, that is what I said, it was to the left of the window and the window was to the right of the door.
Q. And did you walk up this path?
A. No, no, we—I walked up and entered—I kind of walked up along the side on the grass in the bushes, and we stayed close to the bushes.
Q. And was there a light at this location here?
A. Back this way it was a—like a garage, with a house on top of it, and there was a light shining there.
It could have been a light shining right here, this light.
Q. You are pointing right next to the door?
A. Yeah, but I’m not sure that light was on. It could have been.
Q. But this is the house that you went into, is that correct?
A. Yes, yes.
Q. I show you People’s Exhibit No. 6, did you ever see this?
A. That is the—
Q. Did you ever see this house before?
A. That is the house that had the light on it, as you were coming in the driveway and going to that big house.
This here is like we walked past this—
I believe we walked past it, the big house, I think is back here where their place is, right there.
Q. In other words, you passed this building when you went to the main house?
Q. Which side of this building did you pass, the right side of—or the left side?
A. The left side. I believe it was the left side. You could not go around the right because there were like bushes.
Q. Was any cars parked around this house?
A. I didn’t want to remember it at all.
Q. Was there any automobiles in that area when you walked back to this building?
A. There was a white car with a man in it.
And I think there was a car to the right, and then there was a car farther back.
I’m not sure what position the cars were in, but I know there were other cars there.
Q. Was there any light on that building?
A. The one that—the big one, the first building I come to?
Q. No, the building I showed you.
A. Yes, there was a light on in it, a shining light.
Q. Where was the light located?
A. Up high, but it was up high because you had to look up to the building, you know.
When I walked past I looked, and there was a light there, it was like just came right on out of the house.
Q. Well, was there a stairway in this building? An outside stairway, an inside stairway, do you remember?
A. I really want to remember it, and I don’t want to go by what I said before, so if you will go real slow with me.
The light seemed to be shining on steps coming down, like the light was there, and then there were steps coming down, it was almost like the light was on the top of the steps.
Q. Okay, now, I show you People’s Exhibit 14.
A. That is the front door.
Q. Just that—
A. That is the front door.
Q. That is a part of the front door?
A. That is the lower half of the front door, and then it goes up.
I think there is three—there’s three window panes here, three window panes on top of those, and three window panes on top of that.
And then there was wood. It was like a Dutch door.
Q. Do you see the word pig in that picture?
A. Yes, I did that.
Q. Do you remember doing that?
Q. I show you People’s Exhibit 106, have you seen that before?
Q. Did you see this before?
Q. Not the picture, I’m speaking about the person in the picture.
A. Yes, I have seen the person.
Q. When did you see this person before?
A. August 8th.
Q. Now, when you saw her, was she in this position?
A. No, not the first time I saw her.
Q. Did she have this rope around her neck when you saw her?
A. Not the first time I saw her.
Q. When did you see her the second time?
A. The second time? I only saw her one time. I fought with her.
Q. Do you know who that is?
A. I did not know who she was at the time. I know who she is now, or was.
Q. Sharon Tate, right?
Q. I show you People’s Exhibit 107, have you seen that person before?
A. I remember the clothes. I have seen them before.
Q. You have seen them before?
A. Before this incident right now, yes. I saw him on August 8th.
Q. Okay, now—
A. Or it could have been the 9th, in between the 8th and the 9th at night.
Q. When you saw him was he in this position or was he lying?
A. No, he was not. The first time I saw him he was sitting on the edge of the bed.
Q. Do you know who this is?
Q. Who is it?
A. It is Jay Sebring.
Q. The head is covered, I mean you can tell—
A. I remember the clothes.
Q. You remember the clothes he was wearing?
A. Yes, he had dark hair. He was small.
Q. How tall was he?
A. About five eight, five nine, five ten.
Q. And approximately how much did he weigh?
A. Maybe 150, 160.
I am not too good at weights and heights.
Q. I show you People’s Exhibit 87, have you seen this?
A. Yes, that is Sharon Tate.
Q. Was that the way she was when you saw her last?
Q. In this position?
Q. Next to the couch?
A. Yes. That is where I left her.
Q. I show you People’s Exhibit 88, have you seen this before?
Take it in your hand, have you seen that before?
A. I saw this at a distance, as I was leaving the house.
Q. Where was she when you were leaving the house?
A. On the front lawn.
Q. Was she in that position when you last saw her?
A. Yes, about that position. I would imagine that position.
She was laying down. She seemed to be looking up at the sky.
Q. I show you People’s Exhibit 89, have you seen that person before?
A. Yes, I had a fight with him.
Q. Who is that person in the picture?
A. I did not know who it was then. Later I learned it’s Voityck Frykowski.
Q. Was he in that position when you saw him last?
Q. Where was he located?
A. In front of Abigail Folger by the lawn, closer to the front of the house.
Q. Now, do some of these pictures refresh your memory now as to what actually happened in the house?
A. As to what actually happened, yes, I do not wish to recall it, as I said it the first time at the Grand Jury, I want to recall it exactly as it happened.
And as I talk I am putting myself back in time to the time that it happened, and that is something that I am not used to doing.
Q. I show you People’s Exhibit 15, did you ever see that before?
A. No, I did not.
Q. It is a picture of a swimming pool and the house.
A. I have seen the picture before but I have never seen the pool or the house.
Q. I show you People’s Exhibit 14, have you seen that before?
A. Yes, yes, I have seen it before. I was there.
Q. Now, when you say you was there, now, what did this picture depict?
A. This picture shows a rope hanging over a beam. It depicts a ladder going up that I remember running into.
It depicts things being knocked over, or actually fallen over.
It depicts the couch that Voityck Frykowski was lying on when I first saw him.
It depicts the fireplace.
Q. Yeah, but what I’m asking you, Susan, is whether or not you remember?
A. Yes, I remember.
Q. Where was this place located in the house?
A. The living room, just to the left as you would go into the house.
It is like there was a hallway, a very small narrow hallway that went off to the left and off to the right.
I think there was a kitchen.
Q. How about this People’s Exhibit 10, have you ever seen that area before?
A. I have seen the picture, I believe I was in the room.
It looks to me like the room that I first saw Sharon Tate in.
All I can really recall is seeing Sharon Tate laying on the bed and Jay Sebring sitting on the edge of the bed talking to her with his back to me, and his back covered her face so she could not see me when I first saw them.
Q. I show you People’s Exhibit 11, have you ever seen that?
A. This is the bed and the door is right to the front, and right here is where Sharon Tate was laying, and Jay was sitting on the edge of the bed.
Q. Are you saying that this is Sharon Tate’s bedroom?
A. I did not know at the time that it was Sharon Tate’s bedroom.
It could be Sharon Tate’s bedroom, I don’t know. I just know she was lying on that bed.
I remember seeing the bassinette up at the top of this, just flashing.
Q. In other words, you saw this bedroom in the Tate residence?
Q. Did you walk into this room?
A. Yes, I walked to the door and then I walked away from the door.
And right before this door there was another door and then there was another bedroom.
And there was a lady laying on the bed, and she was—I think she was reading, and she looked at me and smiled, and I looked at her and smiled.
Q. Now, when you first looked into Sharon’s bedroom did you see anybody in the bedroom?
Q. How many people?
Q. Was it a male or female?
A. There was a male and female.
Q. And was someone in the bed?
A. Yes, the female was lying in the bed.
Q. And where was the man?
A. The man was sitting next to her close to her on the edge of the bed with his back to me kind of leaning.
He had almost one arm over her, straddled over her waist; it looked like her waist or her thighs or something was underneath his arm.
Q. So did you say anything to them?
A. Not at first, I think I did later.
Q. What did you say to them later?
A. Come with me.
Q. And did they respond?
Q. Did they say anything?
A. “What are you doing here?”
Q. What did you say?
A. I said, “Be quiet and come with me.”
Q. And did you have your knife out?
A. Yeah, I had it in my hand, and they saw it.
Q. And you said, “Come with me,” and where did you take them?
A. To the living room.
Q. Who was in the living room?
A. A man on a couch, Tex, Linda and Katie.
Q. Anyone else?
A. I think before I got those two I went in and got Abigail Folger.
Q. Now, where was Abigail Folger?
A. That was the first bedroom that I saw, the first person that I saw after I saw the man on the couch.
And she smiled at me and I smiled back at her.
Q. In other words, you saw Miss Folger first before you saw Miss Tate?
A. Yes, I believe—Yeah.
Q. Is that what you remember seeing, Miss Folger first?
Q. Where was Miss Folger when you first saw her?
A. She was sitting up in a bed with her legs crossed, a cigarette either burning in the ash tray or in her hand.
I remember seeing the cigarette smoke.
And I looked at her and she smiled as if she knew me and I smiled back.
And I waved to her or gave her a peace sign—I motioned to her with my hand and I moved on, and that is when I saw the man and the woman on the bed.
Q. Now, let’s go back to Miss Folger.
Did you say anything to Miss Folger when you saw her?
Q. No words were exchanged between you and Miss Folger?
A. I think I just smiled, because as I remember I think I just smiled.
Q. Did you take her some place?
A. Not at first. Can I go back to the living room?
Q. Yes, please do.
A. The man on the couch stretched like he was waking up, and I was behind the couch and Katie was next to the couch behind the couch next to me.
And Linda was at the man’s head, and Tex was in front.
Tex did have a gun, Tex did have a gun. I saw the gun, yeah, he had a gun.
And he said something to the man, because the man looked at him.
Q. When you say “man,” what man are you talking about?
A. The man on the couch, this big man, very big. He almost fit the whole couch, the length of the couch. It was a long couch.
And the man said something to Tex like, “What are you doing here? What do you want?” or something to that effect—
I could feel his fear building up.
And Tex pointed a gun at him and said something—what did he say? What did he say? “Shut up.”
To shut up.
Tex was crazy. It was like—I never seen Tex like that before.
And everything seemed to be moving like an electric current was moving me.
And the words came to me, whether they came to me from my head, Tex’s head, Linda’s head, the words just came to me, “Go see if there is anyone else,” and that is when I walked back through the hall and I walked back and I saw the woman lying on the bed with her legs crossed sitting—
She was not lying, she was kind of propped up on pillows reading a book.
I stopped and I looked at her. She looked up at me and she smiled, and that is when I smiled back.
I did something with my left hand. I either waved or I said something with my hands to her, and I moved on, and that is when I saw the woman lying on the bed.
I remember seeing blond hair and a man’s back, and the man had dark hair.
I could not see the woman’s face at first, and I looked at them and I kind of moved—I think I moved back so that they would not see me.
I remember seeing a bassinette.
I turned around and I went back and I just walked in and I looked at Tex and then I looked at Katie and the man on the couch and I said, “There’s three more.”
And then I think Tex said, “Bring them here.”
Q. So did you?
A. Yes, I went back to the first bedroom and I just walked into the bedroom, looked at her and said, “Get up.”
Q. You say, “I looked at her,” you mean Miss Folger?
A. Yes, the woman with the dark hair.
I said, “Get up, come with me.”
And I brought my knife out and I pointed my knife at her.
I said, “Come with me,” and I made sure that she walked in front of me.
I think I grabbed her arm and walked her into the living room.
And then I went back to the other two, and I looked at them and I said, “Come with me,” and they looked at me and said something about, “What do you want?”
I said, “Shut up, just come with me.”
And like my voice came out of me was strange to me. It was like I was angry. I didn’t even know the people.
And I stepped backwards, I walked backwards, and I stepped back into the doorway on the left-hand side, and I let them walk in front of me, and then I walked behind them and walked them out in the living room, and they just went into the living room. They didn’t put up any fight.
I could feel their fear.
By that time the man on the couch was tied up, I don’t remember whether I tied him up or Katie tied him up.
I know his hands were tied with a towel.
Q. Okay, what was Linda Kasabian—
A. Linda was standing there, and then she disappeared for a minute. Time—I don’t know how long she was gone. I think I saw her walk out the front door.
Q. Well, did you see her do anything before she walked out the front door?
A. No, but she came back in.
Q. Then she came back in?
A. Yeah, she came back in later because she had to, because I had exchanged knives with her.
Q. Now, did you see what Linda Kasabian was doing in the house?
A. In the house?
A. I wasn’t paying too much attention to what Linda was doing in the house, I don’t think.
Q. Well, did she have a knife out?
A. I remember seeing a knife in her hand.
Q. Was she near anyone?
A. She was standing at the head of the man on the couch.
Q. Did she say anything to him?
A. No, not at first. She may have said “Be quiet.”
And then the people—the three people were standing at the hallway entrance to the bedroom and I had moved back behind the couch, and Tex had moved to the end of the couch, to the head of the couch with the gun, and the small man, the small man came and started walking to Tex, and approaching Tex.
I heard a shot.
It was a chair—the man seemed to be approaching the chair, but at the same time he had to keep moving to Tex to approach the chair.
And that is when the shot happened, and the blonde woman screamed and then—this all happened so fast.
The blonde woman screamed and then there was the rope—I don’t think the rope was there—I think someone carried it, I haven’t got together on who carried that rope.
The two women screamed, the man on the couch said something and I told him to shut up, and he shut up.
And the rope went around, I think Tex tied the rope around the People’s necks.
The man on the floor was shot and the two women’s necks—then he threw the rope over the beam.
[Page 23,114 is missing from the trial transcript.]
Q. Do you recall what happened after that?
A. I’m trying to remember so hard.
The man on the couch started to get up, and I tried to stop him and he kept pulling my hair and I was kicking at him and I was fighting him, it was like I was fighting for my life, it was like I never fought before, something I never experienced.
I just kept swinging, I kept swinging the knife I would swing the knife backwards, it was like—
I could feel the knife going into something, but I didn’t know what it was going into, because he had ahold of my hair and he was pulling on my hair and I was kicking and I kept saying, “Tex, help me, help me, Tex.”
And the man let go of me and he started to run, and I went to run after him, and then I looked over and Katie was calling “Help.”
She was fighting with the two women. And the darkhaired woman had ahold of Katie’s hair and was pulling on it and Katie was fighting and she called for Linda, and Linda came in, and I ran to the pregnant woman because she was starting to take the rope off her of neck.
And I put my arm around her neck and I had her head in my arms, and then I saw Tex come back to the man on the floor with the rope around his neck and he was stabbing the man.
I was still holding onto the woman.
And Linda came to help Katie. I dropped the knife.
So I asked Linda for her knife, and she handed me her knife.
Katie wasn’t there any more. The woman with the dark hair wasn’t there any more. I was alone.
Tex was gone and Linda was gone. I was alone with that woman. She was pregnant.
She kept pleading “Please don’t kill me, please don’t kill me, I’m not going to say anything.”
I just looked at her like “Shut up.”
I told her to shut up, I don’t want to hear it.
She said “Please, let me sit down.”
I said, “I’m not going to let you do anything, just be quiet.”
Q. Then what happened?
A. I laid her down on the couch.
I threw her down, and held my knife at her, and I said, “Don’t move, don’t move.”
She said “Please, all I want to do is have my baby.”
I said “Don’t move, don’t talk to me, don’t say anything to me. I don’t want to hear it.”
Tex came back in and he stood over and he looked at her and he said, “Kill her.” And I killed her.
And I just stabbed her, and she fell, and I stabbed her again.
She put her arms up, and then her arms fell.
I don’t know how many times I stabbed her. I don’t know why I stabbed her.
There was nobody in the house. I remember seeing Tex hitting that big man on the top of the head in the doorway.
Then he came back in and he told me to kill her, and I killed her.
Then I ran outside and Katie was just getting up from in front of the woman on the grass.
Tex was crazy, he was just running and he was leaping.
Linda wasn’t anywhere to be seen.
And I called for her and I called for her. There was so much noise, so much noise.
And I ran back into the house. That is when I picked up the towel. Then I walked over to Sharon Tate. I looked at her stomach, and then I touched her stomach with the towel.
I walked to the door and I wrote “pig” on the door.
And then I threw the towel back into the house.
I ran outside and Tex and Katie were standing there.
Then we walked away from the house, so much fear, I was feeling so much fear.
I walked out of the gate, I walked past the car, and the man was in the car and he wasn’t moving.
I walked down the hill and Linda was in the car, in the driver’s seat.
Tex told her to move over. I got in the back seat and I closed my eyes and I remembered I did not have my knife.
And I told Tex, “I don’t have my knife,” and he said, “Where is it?”
And I said, “I don’t know.”
He said, “Oh, well,—”
Then we drove off, I changed my clothes. We went up in the mountains.
Q. You said that already, Susan. I want to get you back in the house now.
You said you stabbed Sharon Tate?
Q. Okay, now, just before you stabbed Sharon Tate who was holding Sharon Tate?
A. I was.
Q. You was holding Sharon Tate?
A. In the beginning when I saw her getting loose from the ropes—
Q. Were her hands tied?
Q. How did you hold Sharon Tate?
A. I had her head in my headlock, like a headlock.
Q. Her hands were free?
A. Behind her.
Q. Tied behind her?
Q. Was she punching with her hands?
Q. What was she doing with her hands?
A. I wasn’t paying any attention to what she was doing. I had her so she couldn’t move, and if I were—
Q. Well, you had her in a headlock, correct?
Q. Right side or left side?
A. I had her on my right side.
Q. Were you holding her pretty tight?
Q. She wasn’t scratching you or kicking you with her feet or hands?
A. No, she was scared, scared as I was.
Q. Okay, you got her in a headlock, correct?
Q. And where was Charles Watson at that time?
A. Outside, I guess, I did not see him.
Q. Okay, now, did you stab Sharon Tate when no one else was in the house?
A. I don’t remember if Tex was there or not.
Q. Was anyone else in the house when you stabbed Sharon Tate?
A. I don’t remember.
Oh, somebody could have been there. I know Katie was not there.
Q. Where was Linda?
A. She could have been there, but I am not sure.
Q. Now, how long were you holding Sharon Tate in a headlock before you stabbed her?
A. Not for very long. Long enough to restrain her, to tell her to shut up.
Now, where was your knife when you had her in a head lock?
A. My left hand.
I believe it was before that that I exchanged knives with Linda.
My question is: Where was this knife when you had the headlock on Sharon Tate?
A. Did I have a knife? (Pause.)
I could have had one in my left hand and holding it away from her, and then I could not have had one in my hand.
All I know is that I ended up with a knife in my hand.
I remember exchanging knives or getting a knife from Linda Kasabian, because I looked at her and said, “Help me. Give me your knife.”
Q. Will you demonstrate for us what kind of a headlock you had on Sharon Tate with your hands?
A. Her head was right here, and I had my arm, this part of my arm, and this part of my arm, around her kind of in a V.
Were your hands together at that time?
A. Here. Yes.
Q. Just with your hands like that?
A. It could have been like this, but I think it was like this. And I was pushing up with this hand.
Q. And what hand was your knife in, the left or the right hand?
A. I think it was my left hand.
So, you had her on your right in a headlock; correct?
Q. And you had your knife in your left hand; correct?
A. I believe so.
How I got the knife—I know I dropped the knife. I know I got another knife, and I know I got that knife from Linda.
Whether I got that knife from Linda during the time I had her in a headlock, after I had put her down on the couch, exactly when I got the knife, it is very foggy.
So, now, then, after you had her in a headlock, then you stabbed her; correct?
A. She asked me: “Let me sit down. All I want to do is have my baby.”
And I more or less threw her on the couch in I sitting position where I was facing her, and I told her:
“Shut up. I don’t want to hear it.”
Q. So, now you are standing over her; correct?
Q. And did you still have your knife in your hand at that time?
Q. You did?
Q. Now, was anyone else in the room at that time now after you put her on the couch?
A. I remember Tex coming in.
I don’t remember seeing Katie. Katie had run out of the house.
Linda had come in to give me a knife, and just exactly when she gave it to me, I don’t remember.
I just know that she gave me a knife during my battle with this blond-headed woman.
Okay. Now, she is on the couch and you are standing over here, and Linda came in and gave you a knife at that point?
She came in when Katie was battling with the dark-haired woman.
Q. Then somebody else was in the room at that point; correct?
And that is when I went over to grab the woman who was taking the rope off her neck with the blond hair.
Q. Who was that?
A. That was the pregnant woman, Sharon Tate.
Q. Was Sharon Tate on the couch at this point?
You have got a headlock on her now and you put her on the couch.
Katie had run out, and Tex had run out, and Linda had run out after Katie had run out.
I think that is when she gave me the knife.
Q. Linda gave you the knife at that point?
A. Yes. I think that is when she gave me the knife.
And everybody ran out, and I was alone with a man on the floor and with the blond-headed woman. And I just grabbed her and held her.
Q. And you put her on the couch?
A. I threw her on the couch after I held her for a while.
Q. Then after Linda gave you the knife, did she stay in the room or did she leave?
A. I don’t remember seeing her because I was putting too much attention on to the blond-headed woman, and I was paying attention to her.
I don’t know if Linda was in there. She could have been.
Q. So, now you put this blond-headed woman on the couch.
What did she do when you put her on the couch?
A. She just looked at me and said: “Please let me have my baby.”
I said: “Shut up. I don’t want to hear it.”
Q. Then you stabbed her; correct?
DEFENDANT MANSON: She said it four times.
THE WITNESS: I killed her.
DEFENDANT MANSON: She is your client. Lighten up.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Motion to strike the gratuitous comment by Mr. Manson.
THE COURT: Mr. Manson’s comment will be stricken and the jury is admonished to disregard it.
DEFENDANT MANSON: Excuse me. I meant that to be under my breath. I didn’t mean it to be out loud.
THE WITNESS: What more can I say, Mr. Shinn?
I am remembering it as I saw it. Not the way I said it before but as I saw it.
MR. SHINN: Okay.
Q. Now, you are back at the ranch; correct?
The next night you went out again; correct?
Details in between going from the time I got back to the ranch to the time I got back in the car.
I remember going to sleep in the bunk house.
I remember wiping off the car before I went to sleep.
It is not even like it was asleep, it was like I passed out.
My head was blank. There was nothing in me. It was like I had given it all.
And I remember getting up in the morning, walking around and wondering if it was real, if it really happened.
And I didn’t want to look at it.
I went into the trailer, and Barbara Hoyt was sitting on the couch straining to see the television because she didn’t have her glasses on.
And I asked her to turn the channel.
She said: “What for?”
And I said: “Just turn the channel. I don’t want to watch that.”
And she got up and she went over and she turned the channel three or four times.
And it was there, and it was real, and I did do it.
Q. Then you went out that next night with Clem, Tex, Linda, Katie and Leslie; is that correct?
A. And myself.
Q. And who was driving the car this time?
Q. She took you someplace?
A. She drove all around.
She went on freeways and came off freeways, went through rural areas, then went back on freeways.
I remember seeing the sign saying Pasadena.
We went around a whole bunch of houses. Stopped one time and started the car again, and went off.
And in between all of this travel I would fall asleep. I was tired. I was exhausted.
I didn’t want to be where I was.
Q. Did you finally stop at a house or some place?
A. Yes. In front of Harold True’s house.
I remember the driveway. I had been there before.
I had had an acid trip at Harold True’s house, a big party.
And Linda got out of the car.
Q. Was anything said before Linda got out of the car?
A. “I am going to go talk to Harold True.”
Q. Did she, in fact, leave the automobile?
A. I saw her walk away with Tex.
Tex got out of the car.
Q. Now, did they finally come back?
Q. Were they gone for a long time?
A. Long enough for me to smoke part of a cigarette.
And it was like I fell asleep with the cigarette in my hand, but it was like I didn’t fall asleep, but I know I fell asleep, and I woke back up when I heard voices.
I’d fall asleep, I’d wake up, I’d fall asleep.
It was like I wasn’t. I was not thinking.
Q. When they came back, what happened after they came back?
A. Linda got back in the car, and Tex told Katie and Leslie to get out of the car.
Q. Then what happened?
A. Katie and Leslie and Tex walked off. Tex, Katie, Leslie.
Then after I was in the back seat alone and Linda was in the passenger’s seat, in the front seat. Clem was in the driver’s seat.
And Clem told Linda, “You drive.”
And Linda said, “I don’t want to drive.”
Clem told her, “You drive.”
So she drove.
They stopped at a gas station.
Now, when Tex and Linda came back to the automobile, did they have any things in their hands?
A. Not that I saw.
Q. Did they say anything when they got into the automobile?
A. Tex just told Katie and Leslie to get out of the car. I really wasn’t paying too much attention.
Q. So, now you drove away. And then you stopped at a gas station?
Q. What happened at the gas station?
A. Linda got out of the car.
Q. Was anything said before she got out of the car?
A. She said, “I will leave it here.”
Q. And did you see something in her hand at that time?
A. Yes. But I didn’t know what it was.
Q. Did you see something in her hand?
Q. What did it look like to you?
A. It looked like a small square of something.
She was in the front seat and I was very low in the back seat, and I didn’t see it until she got out of the car, and I saw something in her hand as she walked into the restroom.
Q. When she left the car, did she say anything—Linda?
A. I think she said, “I will leave it here. This is a good place.”
Q. That is all that was said?
A. That is all that was said. That is all I can remember her saying.
Q. Did anyone in the car say anything?
I know I didn’t say anything. I just sat back in the back seat.
Clem got out. I think he bought some gas or something, or got a pack of cigarettes or something.
Q. Then you all drove off?
They got back in the car and drove off.
Q. Who was driving this time?
Q. Did you go some place else?
Q. Where did you go?
A. To the beach.
Q. What beach was this?
A. Oh, I don’t know what beach it was. It was like we drove a long, long, long time.
It was like I was going in circles.
I’d look and try to figure where we were going, and it was just like I was moving in and out of traffic, and I didn’t know where I was going.
And we ended up parked on a hill at the beach, and we got out.
Hermosa Beach? No.
What beach was it?
I don’t remember the name of the beach.
I just know we got off at a beach and we all walked around.
Q. When you say we all walked around, who is we?
A. Clem, Linda and myself.
We walked around, and Clem and Linda were holding hands, and I was kind of walking behind them. Then I would walk with them. Then we would split up.
And then we walked back to the car.
Q. Was anything said between you and the other persons?
Q. While walking at the beach?
A. No, uh-uh.
I remember seeing a police car, and I got afraid.
Q. Where was this police car?
A. It was just driving around.
At the beach there was like a recreation area, and then there were houses on one side, and there was part of a recreation area. Then the ocean on the other side, and a big long wall, and a walkway between the houses and the beach.
Q. And did you talk to these police officers?
A. I didn’t.
Q. Did anyone in your group talk to these police officers?
A. I remember I kind of hid behind a tennis court. Linda and Clem may have spoken to them. I remember seeing them walk by. And then I walked up to them after the police were gone.
Q. And what did you do after the police left?
A. Walked back to the car and got in the car, and Linda drove.
Q. Did you go some place then at that time?
Q. What did you do in Venice?
A. Linda pulled up in front of a house, and she says, “I know the man that lives up on the fourth floor,” or “The fifth floor,” “and he is a pig and he has some money, and let’s walk on up.”
Q. So, did Linda go up?
A. Linda led the way up the stairs.
Q. And did you all go up, you and Clem?
Linda told me and Clem to stay behind the wall.
Like as you walk down a corridor, you turn, and I don’t remember whether it was right or left, but I remember walking up a lot of stairs.
And I heard Linda knock on a door, and somebody said, “Who is it?”
And she said, “Linda.”
And he says, “Well, I don’t know a Linda.”
And she said, “Excuse me.”
And she went to another door and knocked on another door.
Q. Was she looking for somebody?
A. Evidently this person she knew that had some money.
Q. Did she say what his name was?
A. No. She just said he was a pig.
Q. So, what happened after she knocked at the second door?
A. I don’t know.
There was a hesitation.
I didn’t see what went on, because I was behind the hall and I was waiting for her, because she told me to wait there.
She told me and Clem:
“Wait there and I will let you know if it is okay.”
And she just came back and she said, “Come on, let’s go.”
So I walked back down the stairs with her, and we walked along the beach for a while.
And Linda or Clem—between Linda, Clem and myself—we decided that we didn’t want to carry the [illegible]
Clem had a gun.
So I took the gun and I put the gun in my pants, put my sweater or my shirt over it so that you couldn’t see it, and I walked out, across the beach to the pier.
I was going to hide it under the pier and come back myself later and get it.
I walked up underneath the pier and I looked underneath the pier, and it was very dark and very cold.
And I remember seeing shadows of people moving back in there.
I remember seeing a man changing his clothes back under there, and I was aware of people underneath the pier, and I didn’t want to be seen putting anything anywhere.
So, I walked back to Clem and Linda who were waiting kind of like of in a circle of cement with, I think, like an umbrella over it, and I said, “Well, we can’t put it there.”
So we walked across the street over into the rural district of Venice.
I don’t know Venice very well. All I remember is that I put the gun underneath some boards behind a house and I buried it there.
And then I went and got Clem and I showed Clem where the gun was.
We walked back to car, we got in the car and we drove back to Topanga Canyon.
And I said, “Let’s get high.”
Q. Did you stop some place else before you got back to the ranch?
I knew some people, and I really wanted to get high. I wanted to smoke some grass.
And I stopped at a house right next to the Malibu Feed Store. I don’t even remember the People’s names. They were just people that I had met in Topanga Canyon.
And Clem and Linda and I sat down with an older man and a young girl and we smoked some grass.
And then we left, and we drove through the canyon.
And Clem and Linda let me off.
And I went to Devil’s Canyon. I went the back way to Devil’s canyon.
It took me about an hour and a half to walk to the waterfall; an hour, an hour and a half to walk to the waterfall.
And let’s see. Who was there?
Stephanie was there—
Q. Who else was there?
A. There were like two areas. There were like two campsites. There was one at the waterfall and one just around the corner.
I remember Stephanie I think [illegible] Snake.
I remember seeing Tanya. I think Tanya was there.
Zeezo was there.
Q. Who is Zeezo?
A. And I think Charlie was there sleeping.
It is very foggy who exactly was there because I just went there and fell asleep.
Q. This place was about what, a mile away from the ranch?
A. A mile and a half, two miles, maybe three miles back into the woods.
I don’t know distances. I just know it was a long walk to me.
Q. And you went to sleep that night?
A. I went to sleep in Devil’s Canyon, and I think I stayed in Devil’s Canyon for two days. A day and a half two days.
I don’t know how long I stayed there.
I didn’t ever want to leave.
Q. You stayed at the Spahn Ranch until a later date, did you?
Q. And you went to a place in Death Valley?
Q. Approximately when was [illegible]
A. Oh, about three or four days after the raid at the ranch. Maybe five days.
I just jammed. I got wind. I went to the desert to run away.
Q. Who else went to the desert with you?
A. There were a lot of people that had left before I left. I kind of stayed at the ranch for a little bit and got things together at the ranch.
And then I left. And I know I traveled with Leslie and, oh, there was another girl.
Which one was it that I went to the desert with? (Pause.)
I remember Katie was at the desert when I got there. Stephanie was at the desert when I got there. Charlie was at the desert when I got there. Bruce was in the desert. Ruth was in the desert, Ouish. Snake was in the desert. Sherry was in the desert.
I remember when I got to the desert, I think I went with Juan and Leslie. I am not sure.
There are so many times that I left for the desert, I want to get it right, who was with me at this particular time.
Everybody went out to the desert. It was like the ranch was kind of vacated. Maybe one or two people [illegible].
I don’t recall exactly [illegible] it was that [illegible]
Q. Why did you leave the Spahn Ranch?
A. Oh, after that raid, after spending three days in jail, knowing what I had done, knowing Bobby was arrested, I had to get away. I had to get myself together.
The more I tried to get myself together, the more untogether I got.
And then we were arrested in the desert, and a bullet came about two inches away from my head when I was arrested in the desert.
The man who shot the gun didn’t know he was shooting at people inside of a hole inside of a hill. He just shot into it.
And I came out of the hole and I was arrested and taken to Inyo County.
And when I was in Inyo County, I was there for two or three days and didn’t even know why I was arrested.
And then Mr. Gunther and Mr. Whitley came and took me out of Inyo County jail, handcuffed me, didn’t say anything to me or where they were taking me. They were in plain clothes.
They put me in a car with another man who was a sheriff or a highway patrolman, and we drove out across the desert.
And I knew one of them a gun, and I didn’t know [illegible] was going to do with it.
[several words are illegible here]
contact with society’s reality.
Q. And they took you what, approximately 14 or 15 miles away?
A. It took ten or fifteen minutes to get there.
Q. Did these two persons identify themselves?
A. After they took me out of the car, I looked at them, and I was too afraid to say anything to them at first.
I felt they were police officers but I wasn’t sure, and [illegible] didn’t want to say anything.
[illegible] my head, my state of mind at that time was that I didn’t know whether they were going to take me out and shoot me, or what they were going to do with me.
So I just kind of was quiet.
And one of them offered me a cigarette, and I said, “Thank you.”
THE COURT: Mr. Shinn, we will adjourn at this time. Ladies and gentlemen, do not converse with anyone or form or express any opinion regarding penalty until that issue is finally submitted to you.
The court will adjourn until 9:00 o’clock tomorrow morning.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, may we approach the bench, a moment?
THE COURT: Very well.
[several words are illegible here] the bench.)
MR. FITZGERALD: We would like to confer among ourselves for five minutes, if we might.
THE COURT: Very well, you may.
MR. KANAREK: Yes.
Mr. Crow is here. I wonder if you would now order him back for tomorrow morning.
THE COURT: The court is adjourned.
(Whereupon at 4:25 o’clock p.m. the court was in adjournment.)