Charles Manson: November 20, 1970 Testimony
There has been a lot of charges and a lot of things said about me and brought against me and brought against the co-defendants in this case, of which a lot could be cleared up and clarified to where everyone could understand exactly what the family was supposed to have been, what the philosophies in regards to the families were, and whether or not there was any conspiracy to commit murder, to commit crimes, and to explain to you who think with your minds.
It is hard for you to conceive of a philosophy of someone that may not think.
I have spent my life in jail, and without parents.
I have looked up to the strongest father figure, and I have always looked to the people in the free world as being the good people, and the people in the inside of the jail as being the bad people.
I never went to school, so I never growed up in the respect to learn to read and write so good, so I have stayed in jail and I have stayed stupid, I have stayed a child while I have watched your world grow up, and then I look at the things that you do and I don’t understand.
I don’t understand the courts, and I don’t understand a lot of things that are brought against me.
You write things about my mother in the newspaper that hasn’t got anything to do with anything in particular.
You invent stories, and everybody thinks what they do, and then they project it from the witness stand on the defendant as if that is what he did.
For example, with Danny DeCarlo’s testimony. He said that I hate black men, and he said that we thought alike, that him and I was a lot alike in our thinking.
But actually all I ever did with Danny DeCarlo or any other human being was reflect himself back at himself.
If he said he did not like the black man, I would say, “Okay.” I had better sense than tell him I did not dislike the black man. I just listened to him and I would react to his statement.
So consequently he would drink another beer and walk off and he would pat me on the back and he would say, “Charlie thinks like I do.”
But actually he does not know how Charlie thinks because Charlie has never projected himself.
But maybe the girls and women in your world outside, being by yourself for such a long time when you do get out, you appreciate things that people don’t even see, you walk over them every day.
Like in jail you have a whole new attitude, or a whole different way of thinking.
I don’t think like you people. You people put importance on your lives.
Well, my life has never been important to anyone, not even in the understanding of the way you fear the things you fear and the things that you do.
I cannot understand you, but I don’t try. I don’t try to judge nobody.
I know that the only person I can judge is me.
I judge what I have done and I judge what I do and I look and live with myself every day.
I am content with myself.
If you put me in the penitentiary, that means nothing because you kick me out of the last one.
I didn’t ask to get released, I liked it in there because I like myself.
I like being with myself.
But in your world it’s hard because your understanding and your values are different.
These children that come at you with knives, they are your children. You taught them. I didn’t teach them. I just tried to help them stand up.
Most of the people at the ranch that you call the Family were just people that you did not want, people that were alongside the road, that their parents had kicked them out or they did not want to go to Juvenile Hall; so I did the best I could and I took them up on my garbage dump and I told them this, that in love there is no wrong.
I don’t care. I have one law I live by and I learned it when I was a kid in reform school, it’s don’t snitch, and I have never snitched, and I told them that anything they do for their brothers and sisters is good, if they do it with a good thought.
It is not my responsibility. It is your responsibility. It is the responsibility you have towards your own children that you are neglecting, and then you want to put the blame on me again and again and again.
Over and over again you put me in your penitentiary. I did not build the penitentiary and I would not lock one of you up. I could not see locking another human being up.
You eat meat with your teeth and you kill things that are better than you are, and in the same respect you say how bad and even killers that your children are. You make your children what they are. I am just a reflection of every one of you.
I have never learned anything wrong. In the penitentiary I have never found a bad man. Every man in the penitentiary has always showed me his good side, and circumstances put him where he was. He would not be there; he is good; human, just like the policeman that arrested him is a good human.
I have nothing against none of you. I can’t judge any of you. But I think it is high time that you all started looking at yourselves, and judging the lie that you live in.
I sit and I watch you from nowhere, and I have nothing in my mind, no malice against you and no ribbons for you.
But you stand and you play the game of money. As long as you can sell a newspaper, some sensationalism, and you can laugh at someone and joke at someone and look down at someone, you know.
You just sell those newspapers for public opinion, just like you all are hung on public opinion, and none of you have any idea what you are doing.
You are just doing what you are doing for the money, for a little bit of attention from someone.
I can’t dislike you, but I will say this to you, you haven’t got long before you are all going to kill yourselves because you are all crazy.
And you can project it back at me, and you can say that it’s me that cannot communicate, and you can say that it’s me that don’t have any understanding, and you can say that when I am dead your world will be better, and you can lock me up in your penitentiary and you can forget about me.
But I’m only what lives inside of you, each and every one of you.
These children, they take a lot of narcotics because you tell them not to.
Any child you put in a room and you tell them, “Don’t go through that door,” he never thought of going through that door until you told him not to go through the door.
You go to the high schools and you show them pills and you show them what not to take. How else would they know what it was unless you tell them?
And then you tell them what you don’t want them to do in the hopes they will go out and do it and then you can play your game with them and then you can give attention to them, because you don’t give them any of your love.
You only give them your frustration; you only give them your anger; you only give them the bad part of you rather than give them the good part of you.
You should all turn around and face your children and start following them and listening to them.
The music speaks to you every day, but you are too deaf, dumb and blind to even listen to the music. You are too deaf, dumb and blind to stop what you are doing. You point and you ridicule.
But it’s okay, it’s all okay. It doesn’t really make any difference because we are all going to the same place anyway. It’s all perfect. There is a God; he sits right over here beside me; that is your God. This is your God.
But let me tell you something, there is another Father and he has much more might than you imagine.
If I could get angry at you I would try to kill every one of you. If that’s guilt, I accept it.
These children, everything they have done, they done for love of their brother.
Had you not arrested Robert Beausoleil for something he did not do—
MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, I am going to object.
This is not proper testimony in or outside the presence of the jury.
You are stating a legal conclusion as to the guilt or innocence of another defendant in another case.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, if we are to have equal protection of the law understood, Mr. Manson was going to make a statement over my objection, of course, and he is speaking.
Now Mr.—he is entitled—he has not finished his narrative.
Now, if there is to be equal protection of the law under the Fourteenth Amendment, Mr. Bugliosi should not interrupt him. Then we are going to do our—whatever we are going to do, because he is stating things which Mr. Bugliosi doesn’t like, Mr. Bugliosi is interrupting and I would ask the protection of the Court, your Honor, to order Mr. Bugliosi to obey the Court’s order.
MR. BUGLIOSI: There hasn’t been any order from the Court that Mr. Manson can just ramble on discursively, your Honor, as to inadmissible matters.
That is the whole point of this proceeding now, to determine what his testimony is going to be.
THE COURT: I have heard enough.
Do you have anything else to say, Mr. Manson?
THE WITNESS: I have killed no one and I have ordered no one to be killed.
I don’t place myself in the seat of judgment.
I may have implied on several occasions to several different people that I may have been Jesus Christ, but I haven’t decided yet what I am or who I am.
I was given a name and a number and I was put in a cell, and I have lived in a cell with a name and a number.
I don’t know who I am.
I am whoever you make me, but what you want is a fiend; you want a sadistic fiend because that is what you are.
You only reflect on me what you are inside of yourselves, because I don’t care anything about any of you, and I don’t care what you do.
I can stand here in front of this court and smile at you, and you can do anything you want to do with me, but you cannot touch me because I am only my love, and it is all for me, and I give it to myself for me, because I look out for me first and I like me and you can live with yourselves and your opinion of yourselves. I know what I have done.
If I showed someone that I would do anything for my brother, include giving my life for my brother in the battlefield, or give where else that I may want to do that, then he picks his banner up and he goes off and does what he does.
That is not my responsibility. I don’t tell people what to do.
If we enter into an agreement to build a house, I will help you build the house and I will offer suggestions for that house, but I won’t put myself on you because that is what made you weak, because your parents have offered themselves on you.
You are not you, you are just reflections, you are reflections of everything that you think that you know, everything that you think that you know, everything that you have been taught.
Your parents have told you what you are; they made you before you were six years old, and when you stood in school and you crossed your heart and pledged allegiance to the flag, they trapped you in truth because at that age you didn’t know any lie until the lie was reflected on you.
No, I am not responsible for you. Your kharma is not mine.
My father is the jail house. My father is your system, and each one of you, each one of you are just a reflection of each one of you, you are just a reflection of each one of you, and you all live by yourselves, no matter how crowded you may think that you are in a room with a lot of people, you are still by yourselves, and you have to live with that self forever and ever and ever and ever.
To some people this would be hell; to some people it would be heaven.
I have mine, and each one of you will have to work out yours, and you cannot work out by pointing your fingers at people.
I have ate out of your garbage cans to stay out of jail.
I have wore your second-hand clothes.
I have give everything I have away, everything.
I have accepted things and given them away the next second.
I have done my best to get along in your world and now you want to kill me, and I look at you, and I look how incompetent you all are, and then I say to myself, “You want to kill me, ha, I’m already dead, have been all my life.”
“I’ve lived in your tomb that you built.”
I did seven years for a $37 check, I did 12 years because I didn’t have any parents, and how many other sons do you think you have in there? You have many sons in there, many, many sons in there, most of them are black and they are angry; they are mad and they are mad at me.
And I look and I say, “Why are you mad at me?” He said, “I am mad at you because of what your father did.”
He said, “l want to take your head because of what your fathers did.”
And I look at him and I say, “Well,” and I look at my fathers, and I say, “If there was ever a devil on the face of this earth I am him.”
And he’s got my head anytime he wants it, as all of you do, too, anytime you want it.
Sometimes I think about giving it to you; sometimes I’m thinking about just jumping on you and let you shoot me. Sometimes I think it would be easier than sitting here and facing you in the contempt that you have for yourself, the hate that you have for yourself, it’s only the anger you reflect at me, is the anger that you have got for you.
I don’t dislike you, I cannot dislike you; I am you. You are my blood. You are my brother. That is why I can’t fight you.
If I could I would jerk this microphone off and beat your brains out with it because that is what you deserve, that is what you observe.
Every morning you eat that meat with your teeth.
You are all killers; you kill things better than you, and what can I say to you that you don’t already know?
And I have known that there is nothing I can say to you; there is nothing I can say to any of you. It is you that has to say it to you, and that’s my whole philosophy, you say it to you and I will say it to me.
I live in my world, and I am my own king in my world, whether it be in a garbage dump or if it be in the desert or wherever it be, I am my own human being.
You may restrain my body and you may tear my guts out, do anything you wish, but I am still me and you can’t take that.
You can kill the ego; you can kill the pride; you can kill the want, the desire of a human being.
You can lock him in a cell and you can knock his teeth out and smash his brain, but you cannot kill the soul.
You never could kill the soul. It’s always there, the beginning and the end, you cannot stop it, it’s bigger than me. I’m just looking into it and it frightens me sometimes.
The truth is now, the truth is right here; the truth is this minute, and this minute we exist.
Yesterday—you cannot prove yesterday happened today, it would take you all day and then it would be tomorrow, and you can’t prove last week happened. You can’t prove anything except to yourself.
My reality is my reality, and I stand within myself on my reality.
Yours is yours and I don’t care what it is. Whatever you do is up to you, and it’s the same thing with anybody in my family and anybody in my family is a white human being, because my family is of the white family.
There is a black family, the yellow family, the red family, a cow family and a mule family. There is all kinds of different families.
We have to find ourselves first, God second and kind, k-i-n-d, comes next, and that is all I was doing, I was working on cleaning up my house, something Nixon should have been doing. He should have been on the side of the road picking up his children, but he wasn’t. He was in the White House, sending them off to war.
I don’t know the different people that have got on the stand—one friend said I put a knife to his throat.
I did. I put a knife to his throat.
And he said that I was responsible for all of these killings.
I do feel some of a responsibility. I feel a responsibility for the pollution; I feel a responsibility for the whole thing.
I feel a responsibility for you. I feel a responsibility for my reflection. I feel a responsibility for my love of my brother as much as my love of my brother will let me have a responsibility.
And I did put a knife to his throat, and here is what I said to him:
“Why do you lie to me? Can’t you tell me the truth?”
I said, “The little lies that you tell me aren’t important. Why must you lie to me?”
I said, “Don’t you know in the penitentiary if you lie to somebody, someone in the penitentiary, they can just as easily kill you, cut your throat,” I said, “If you lie to someone it gives them an excuse to kill you,” I said, “If you never lie to anyone you never have anyone to kill you because you never have given them an excuse.
“If you always treat people right they have no call to come and hit you.”
I survived 23 years in every torture chamber you have in this country, and I survived by bringing the good out in each human being I meet. You can call it fear; I am afraid I am a coward and I am brave; I am neither one. It don’t make any difference.
And I look at the guys in jail, if you show them a good side and smile at them, they will show you a good side and smile back at you just like anyone else in the street.
So I tried to explain to Juan that if he did not lie and he did not cheat, that he did not leave himself open to be hurt, but if he lies, then he leaves himself open for that lie.
It’s a creation against himself. It is a negative thought that he has about himself, and that he projects it at me, and I tell him I don’t want to hear no lies.
So then it goes on to another witness, Dianne Bluestein.
Dianne Bluestein’s parents kicked her out of the house when she was 13.
Dianne always liked to get attention from her father, around her mother’s game.
So she would do things like drop coffee and spill things and do childish little things so her Daddy would come and spank her on the hand.
So she brought that problem to the ranch. She asked to be spanked several times.
She come close to burning the ranch up and I would tell her, “Would you quit doing that,” I says, “If you don’t stop doing that I’m going to spank you. I’m going to whip you.”
And she would keep doing it, so as any father would do I conditioned her mind with pain to keep her from burning the ranch down or to keep her from doing something that she may have done that would affect everyone.
I have done the best I know how, and I have given all I can give and I haven’t got any guilt about anything because I have never been able to see any wrong.
I never found any wrong.
I looked at wrong, and it is all relative. Wrong is if you haven’t got any money.
Wrong is if your car payment is overdue.
Wrong is if the TV breaks.
Wrong is if President Kennedy gets killed.
Wrong is, wrong is, wrong is—you keep on; you pile it in your mind. You become belabored with it, and in your confusion—
I make up my own mind, I think for myself, I look at you and I say, “Okay, you make up your own mind, you think for yourself, then you see your mothers and your fathers and your teachers and your preachers and your politicians and your presidents lays in your brain with your opinions, considerations, conclusions, and I look at you and I say, “Okay, if you are real to you it’s okay with me, but you don’t look real to me. You only look like a composite of what someone told you you are. You live for each other’s opinion and you have pain on your face and you are not sure what you look like, and you wonder if you look okay.”
And I look at you and I say, “Well, you look all right to me,” you know, and you look at me and you say well, I don’t look all right to you.
Well, I don’t care what I look like to you.
I don’t care what you think about me and I don’t care what you do with me.
I have always been yours anyway.
I have always been in your cell.
When you were out riding your bicycle I was sitting in your cell looking out the window and looking at pictures in magazines and wishing I could go to high school and go to the proms, wishing I could go to the things you could do, but oh so glad, oh so glad, brothers and sisters, that I am what I am.
Because when it does come down around your ears and none of you know what you are doing, you better believe I will be on top of my thought.
I will know what I am doing.
I will know exactly what I am doing.
If you ever let me go, before you kill me, and then I don’t really particularly care anyway, because I still will be there and I will still know what I’m doing.
In my mind I live forever; in my mind I live forever, and in my mind I have always lived forever.
Truth is relative to the way you want to think. You can think it any way you want, but I have still not broken your rule.
I have not broken your rule because I learned a lesson a long time ago, this man is God.
If you don’t believe he is God, you stand up in the courtroom and he will show you.
And if the deputies aren’t enough, he will go out and get the Army and that is enough. He is the most powerful thing on the face of this earth, and I accept his power because I have no power greater than his.
THE COURT: We are going to take a recess at this time.
You may step down, Mr. Manson.
You may resume your statement after the recess. We will recess for 15 minutes.
THE COURT: All parties and counsel are present. The jury is not present.
You may continue, Mr. Manson.
THE WITNESS: It is likened unto that you would bring yourselves and set yourselves on a witness stand, and then take the guilt that you have for your motive and prosecute me.
I am only what you made me. I am only a reflection of you.
I have done everything I have always been told. I have mopped the floor when I was supposed to mop the floor, and I swept when I was supposed to sweep.
I was smart enough to stay out of jail and too dumb to learn anything. I was too little to get a job there, and too big to do something over here.
I have just been sitting in jail thinking nothing. Nothing to think about.
Everybody used to come in and tell me about their past and their lives and what they did. But I could never tell anybody about my past or what my life was or what I did because I have always been sitting in that room with a bed, a locker and a table.
So, then it moves on to awareness, to how many cracks can you count in the wall? It moves to where the mice live and what the mice are thinking, and you see how clever mice are.
And then, when you get on the outside, you look into People’s heads. You take Linda Kasabian and you put her on the witness stand, and she testifies against her father.
She never has liked her father, and she has always projected her wrong off to the man-figure.
So, consequently, it is the man’s fault again, and the woman turns around and she blames it on the man. The man made her do it. The man put her up to it.
The man works for her, the man slaves for her, the man does everything for her, and she lays around the house and tells him what he should do, because, generally, she is an extension of his mother. His mother told him what to do and she trained him for 20 years and passed him on to the wife. Then the woman takes him and tells him what to wear, when to get up, when to go to work.
Then, when she gets on the stand and she wants to get out and wants to make some money and wants to be famous, here is her chance.
So, she gets on the stand and she says when she looked in that man’s eyes that was dying, she knew that it was my fault.
She knew that it was my fault because she couldn’t face death. And if she can’t face death, that is not my fault.
Why should she blame it on me? I can face death. I have all the time.
In the penitentiary, you live with it, with constant fear of death, because it is a violent world in there, and you have to be on your toes constantly.
So, it is not without violence that I live. It is not without fighting that I live. It is not without pain that I live.
I look at the projection that comes from this witness stand often to the defendants. It isn’t what we said, it is what someone thought we said.
A word is changed, “In there” to “Up there,” “Off of that” to “On top.”
The semantics get into a word game in the courtroom to prove something that is gone in the past. It is gone in the past, and when it is gone, it is gone, Sisters. It is gone, Brother.
You can’t bring the past back up and postulate or mock-up a picture of something that happened a hundred years ago, or 1970 years ago, as far as that goes. You can only live in the now, for what is real now.
The words go in circles. You can say everything is the same, but it is always different. It is the same, but it is always different.
You can “but” it to death. You can say, “You are right, but, but, but.”
You sat here for 19 days questioning that girl. She got immunity on seven counts of murder. She got, I don’t know how much money she is going to make in magazines and things.
You set her up to be a hero, and that is your woman. That is the thing that you worship.
You have lost sight of God. You sing your songs to woman. You put woman in front of man.
Woman is not God. Woman is but a reflection of her man, supposedly.
But a lot of times man is a reflection of his woman. And if a man can’t rise above a woman’s thought, then that is his problem. It is not my problem. But you give me this problem when you set this woman against me.
You set this woman up here to testify against me. And she tells you a sad story, how she has only taken every narcotic that it is possible to take. She has only stolen, lied, cheated, and done everything that you have got there in the book.
But it is okay. She is telling the truth now. She is telling the truth now. She wouldn’t have any ulterior motive like immunity for seven counts of murder.
And then, comical as it may seem, you look at me, and you say “You threatened to kill the person if they snitch.”
Well, that is the law where I am from. Where I am from, if you snitch, you leave yourself open to be killed.
I could never snitch because I wouldn’t want someone to kill me. So, I have always abided by that law. It is the only law that I know of, and it is the law that I have always abided by.
But she will come up here and you enshrine her, you put her above you, and you strive to be as good as something below you.
It is circles that just don’t make sense in my reality. But, of course, again, that is my reality and it has nothing to do with you, because you have got your reality and you have to live with what you believe in.
But this woman has got up here and she has testified. She said she wasn’t sure, but maybe.
Then the magical mystery tour wouldn’t be able to be explained to you.
A magical mystery tour is when you pick up somebody else and play a part. You may pick up a cowboy today and you go around all day and play like a cowboy. You put on a hat and you ride a horse.
That is all we have done. We have played like mom and dad. We have loved each other. We have done everything we could to stay outside the frame of the law, the shakedowns. Nothing has been stolen.
I have got better sense than to break the law. I give to the law what it has coming. It is his law. If I break his law, he puts me back in the grave again.
I haven’t broken his law yet, but it seems like if somebody lays around and somebody needs to fulfill a spot, they snatch it up and say, “This will do. We will put this over here. We can hang this on him, or we can do this to that.”
Then the words go into another meaning and another level of understanding.
Why a woman would stand up and project herself off into a man and say, “Actually he never told me anything, but I knew it all came from him.”
Her assumption. Am I to be found guilty on her assumption?
Am I to be found guilty on your assumption?
You assume what you would do in my position but that doesn’t mean that is what I did in my position. It doesn’t mean that my philosophy is valid. It is only valid to me.
Your philosophies, they are whatever you think they are, and I don’t particularly care what you think they are.
But I know this: That in your own hearts and your own souls, you are as much responsible for the Viet-Nam War as I am for killing these people.
I knew a guy that used to work in the stockyards and he used to kill cows all day long with a big sledge hammer, and then go home at night and eat dinner with his children, and eat the meat that he slaughtered. Then he would go to church and read the Bible, and he would say, “That is not killing.”
And I look at him and I say: That doesn’t make sense what you are talking about.
Then I look at the beast, and I say: Who is the beast?
I am the beast. I am the beast. I am the biggest beast walking the face of the earth. I kill everything that moves. As a man, as a human, I take responsibility for that.
As a human, it won’t be long, God will ask you to take responsibility for it.
It is your creation. You live in your creation. I never created your world, you created it.
You create it when you pay taxes, you create it when you go to work. Then you create it when you foster a thing like this.
Only for vicarious thrill do you sell a newspaper and do you cow-tow to public opinion. Just to sell your newspapers. You don’t think about the truth.
You take another Alka-Seltzer and another aspirin and hope that you don’t have to think of the truth and you hope that you don’t have to look at yourself with a hangover as you go to a helter skelter party and make fun of something that you don’t understand.
THE COURT: Mr. Manson, the purpose of this hearing is to permit you to make a statement which you will be permitted to make in front of the jury.
In order to be admissible, that statement must have some relevance to the issues in this case.
You seem to be getting far afield.
Do you wish to direct your statement toward—
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: —the matters concerning this case and the charges against you?
THE WITNESS: Yes, sir.
THE COURT: All right.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, if I may, I would object to your Honor’s statement.
THE WITNESS: I thought you rested your case, Mr. Kanarek.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, on the basis that it is a denial of the right to counsel, effective counsel; and your Honor has violated your own edict that this is to be a narrative.
THE COURT: You may proceed, Mr. Manson.
THE WITNESS: The issues in this case? The issues in this case?
The issues are that Mr. Younger is Attorney-General, and I imagine he is a good man and does a good job. I don’t know him. I can’t judge him. But I know he has got me here. He set me in this seat.
Mr. Bugliosi is doing his job for a paycheck. That is in issue. He is doing whatever he is doing; whether he thinks it is right or not, I couldn’t say. That is up to him.
The evidence in this case is a gun.
There was a gun that laid around the ranch. It belonged to everybody. Anybody could use the gun. There was approximately a hundred and fifty people going through that ranch; anywhere from cowboys to motorcycle people to people in the entertainment field. Lawyers.
Mr. Hughes has been over to my house several times before these trials. The police come by at least three times a week. They go through the house. They have seen the gun. It lays in the corner. People play with it like as if it was a toy.
Anybody could have picked that gun up and done anything they wanted to do with it.
I don’t deny having that gun. That gun has been in my possession many times.
I traded that gun for Danny’s milk truck to keep Bill Vance from shooting up the ranch, because he was mad and drunk, and the only way I could get the gun away from Bill was for the milk truck. That was the only way I could keep from fighting him. He was a lot bigger than I.
The only way that I have been able to live on that side of the road was outside the law. I have always lived outside the law. When you live outside the law, it is pretty hard, you can’t call The Man for protection. You have got to pretty much protect your own.
You can’t live within the law and protect yourself. You can’t knock the guy down when he comes over and starts to rape one of the girls, or start to bring some speed or dope up there.
You can’t enforce your will over someone. But the gun was there, as a lot of other things were there. Like the rope was there. As on ranches with 80 or 90 horses, generally ropes are around, and generally, when you take care of a horse ranch, you buy supplies, you buy rope.
So I went and bought a hundred and fifty feet of rope for the ranch. With a hundred and fifty feet of rope, you can tie up a lot of people with that. You can cut that rope off and use it for anything you want to use it for. The rope is rope. It belongs to itself. I bought it and brought it back to the ranch.
I gave everything I could think of to that old man and that ranch for permission to stay there, and I have given the people that stayed on that ranch my all.
When no one wanted to go out in front and fight, I would go out and fight. When no one else wanted to clean the toilet, I would go and clean them.
People would see me and they would see what I do and see the example that I set. They see when I am cleaning out a cesspool that I am happy and smiling and doing it and making a game out of it.
Like I was on a chain gang somewhere once upon a time and they come and pass the water. I make a game out of it or make a pleasure out of a job. We turn it into a magical mystery tour.
We speed down the highway in a 1958 automobile that won’t go but 50, and an XKE jaguar goes by, and I state to Clem, “Catch him, Clem, and we will rob him, or steal all of his money,” you know.
And he says, “What shall we do?”
I say, “Hit him in the head with a hammer.”
We magical mystery tour it.
Then Linda Kasabian gets on the stand and says; They were going to kill a man; they were going to kill a man in an automobile.
To you, it seems serious. But like Larry Kramer and I would get on a horse and we would ride over to Witchita, Kansas, and act like cowboys. We make it a game on the ranch.
Like Helter Skelter is a nightclub. Helter Skelter means confusion, literally. It doesn’t mean any war with anyone. It doesn’t mean that those people are going to kill other people. It only means what it means.
Helter Skelter is confusion. Confusion is coming down fast. If you can’t see the confusion coming down around you fast, you can call it what you wish.
It is not my conspiracy. It is not my music. I hear what it relates. It says, “Rise,” it says, “Kill.”
Why blame it on me? I didn’t write the music.
I am not the person that projected it into your social consciousness, that sanity that you projected into your social consciousness today. You put so much in the newspaper and you expect people to believe what is going on.
I say back to the facts again. How many witnesses have got up here and projected only what they believe in?
What I believe in is right now. I don’t believe in anything past now. I speak to you from now.
Because there is nothing here to worry about, nothing here to think about, nothing here to be confused over.
My house is not divided. My house is one with me, myself.
Then I look at the facts that you have brought in front of this court, and I look at the 12 facts that are looking at me and judging me.
If I were to judge them, what scale would that balance?
Would the scale balance if I was to turn and judge you? How would you feel if I were to judge you? Could I judge you?
I can only judge you if you try to judge me. That is the fact.
Mr. Bugliosi is a hard-driving prosecutor, polished education. Semantics, words. He is a genius.
He has got everything that every lawyer would want to have except one thing: a case. He doesn’t have a case.
Were I allowed to defend myself, I could have proven this to you. I could have called witnesses and showed you how these things lay, and I could have presented my picture.
But I am inadequate in education, I don’t have much schooling, and the judge has recognized this. So, I am forced to sit here and just amble on without the thought there.
The rope, the gun, the clothes. It was really convenient that Mr. Baggott found those clothes. I imagine he got a little taste of money for that.
I imagine that it just so happens, out of all that territory up there, Mulholland Drive, he just turned the corner and pop, he happened to see those clothes. Isn’t that marvelous?
And the bloodstains? Well, they are not exactly bloodstains, they are Benzedine reaction.
What is a Benzedine reaction? We got into semantics. It is not a blood stain. If it is not a blood stain, it is not a blood stain, I call it a Benzedine reaction. That is somewhere else in another courtroom.
You are dealing with facts and positive evidence, if you are dealing with things that are relative to the issues at hand, then you look at the facts.
What else do you look at? Oh, the leather thong.
How many people have ever worn moccasins with a leather thong in it?
So, you have placed me in the desert with leather clothes on, and you took a leather thong from my shoe.
How many people could we go take leather thongs from?
That is in issue.
Then you move on and you say I had one around my neck.
I always tie one around my head when my hair is long. It keeps it out of my eyes. And you pull it down on your neck. And I imagine a lot of long-haired people do that.
There are so many aspects to this case that could be dug into and a lot of truth could be brought up, a lot of understanding could be reached.
It is a pretty hideous thing to look at seven bodies, 102 stab wounds.
The prosecutor, or the doctor, gets up and he shows how all the different stab wounds are one way, and then how all the different stab wounds are another way; but they are the same stab wounds in another direction.
They put the hideous bodies on display and they say; if he gets out, see what will happen to you. Implying. I am not saying he did this. This is implied.
That could be cleaned up very well. A lot of diagrams are actually in my opinion senseless to the case.
Fingerprints with just enough points. We couldn’t have stretched it. Maybe it was 11 points. Well, we will call this one a point. We will justify that by saying: Well, I am a ballistics expert. Naturally, we didn’t take no pictures of this bullet. We ain’t got no pictures, but we have got big cameras, thousands of dollars worth of cameras, but we didn’t get a picture of that bullet.
Why? No attorney would bring it out.
If I could have questioned the ballistics man, maybe we could have brought out a few more things.
I am trying to stick as close as I can with the issues, but I can’t.
Like the four filing cabinets. There is a hundred and how many exhibits? I don’t know.
Then there is Paul Watkins’ testimony.
Paul Watkins was a young man who ran away from his parents and wouldn’t go home.
You could ask him to go home, and he would say no.
He would say: I don’t have no place to live. Can I live here?
And I’d say: Sure.
So, he looks for a father image. I offer no father image. I say: To be a man, boy, you have got to stand up and be your own father.
And he still hungers for a father image. So, he goes off to the desert and finds a father image.
When he gets on the stand—I forget what he said, whether it had any relative value—oh, I was supposed to have said to go get a knife and kill the Sheriff of Shoshone.
Go get a knife and kill the Sheriff of Shoshone? I don’t know the Sheriff of Shoshone. I don’t think I have been there but once.
I am not saying that I didn’t say it, but if I said it, at the time I may have thought it was a good idea.
Whether I said it in gest or whether I said it in joking, I can’t recall and reach back in my memory.
I could say either way, I could say: Oh, I was just joking; or I could say I was curious. But to be honest with you, I don’t recall ever saying: Get a knife and change of clothes and go do what Tex said. Or I don’t recall saying: Get a knife and go kill the Sheriff.
I don’t recall saying to anyone: Go get a knife and kill anyone or anything.
In fact, it makes me mad when someone kills snakes or dogs or cats or horses.
I don’t even like to eat meat because that is how much I am against killing.
So, you have got the guy that is against killing on the witness stand, and you are all asking him to kill you. You are asking him to judge you. Because with my words, each one of your opinions or diagrams, your thoughts, are dying. What you thought was true is dying. What you thought was real is dying.
Because you all know, and I know you know, and you know that I know you know. So, let’s make that circle.
You say: Where do we start from there? Back to the facts again. You say the facts are elusive in my mind. They just don’t mean anything. The District Attorney can call them facts with words. This is a fact (indicating). This is a fact, this is a fact. He is a fact. They are facts. You are facts.
But the facts of the case aren’t even relative, in my mind. They are relative to the 13th Century. They are relative to the 8th Century. They are relative to how old you are or what kind of watch you wear on your arm.
I have never lived in time. A bell rings. I get up. The door opens and I go out. A bell rings and I go eat. A bell rings and I live my life with bells. I get up when a bell rings and I do what a bell says. I have never lived in time. When your mind is not in time, the whole thought is different.
You look at time as being man made, and you say time is only relative to what you want to think it is.
If you want to think me guilty, then you can think me guilty, and it is okay with me. I don’t dislike any of you for it.
If you want to think me not guilty, it is okay with me.
I know what I know, and nothing and no one can take that from me.
You can jump up and scream “Guilty,” and you can say what a no good guy I am and what a devil, fiend eeky-sneaky slimy devil I am. It is your reflection and your right, because that is what I am; I am whatever you make me.
You see, it is what happens inside the Now that the words just lose meaning, because the words to me have no meaning.
A motion is more real than a word. The Indians spoke with it. They could explain to you with motions what they felt.
This is what I intended to do if I could represent myself, explain to you what is inside of me, how I feel about things.
Because words are your words. You invented the words, and you made a dictionary, and you gave me the dictionary and you said: These are what the words mean.
Well, this is what they mean to you, but to someone else, they have got a different dictionary, and things mean different things to different people, and to match the symbols up as you talk back and forward. Then you put a witness up here to say what you said.
I could never say what someone else said. I could only say what I said.
You tell me something and tomorrow, if I try to repeat it, if I didn’t have it written down, I couldn’t tell you what you said. Let alone a year ago, let alone eight months ago, let alone a week ago.
I am forgetful. I forget one day to the next. I forget what day it is or what month it is or what year it is.
I don’t particularly care because all that is real to me is right now.
But then, the case is real to me, and I say: What do I have to do to make you people let me go back to the desert with my children?
You have your world. You are going to do whatever you do with it.
I have got nothing to do with it. I don’t have the schooling in it. I don’t believe in your church. I don’t believe in anything you do.
I am not saying you are wrong, and I hope that you say I am not wrong for believing what I believe in.
Murder? Murder is another question. It is a move. It is a motion. You take another’s life. Boom, and they are gone.
You say: Where did they go? They are dead.
You say: Well, that person could have made the motion. He could have taken my life just as well as I took his life.
If a soldier goes off to the battlefield, he goes off with his life in front. He is giving his life. Does that not give him permission to take one? No. Because then we bring our own soldiers back and try them in court for doing the same thing we send them to do.
We train them to kill, and they go over and kill, and we prosecute them and put them in jail because they kill.
And we put them in jail because they kill. If you can understand it, then I bow to your understanding.
But in my understanding I wouldn’t get involved with it.
My peace is in the desert or in the jail cell, and had I not seen the sunshine in the desert I would be satisfied with the jail cell much more over your society; much more over your reality, and much more over your confusion, and much more over your world, and your word games that you play.
We are all important; we all make lots of money; we are big shots, drive fine cars, have $300 watches. We all sit here in our importance. We get a little guy, put him over there and he’s generally littler than this guy, you don’t get big tough guys in here.
If I was a big tough guy you couldn’t hold me here, and like the bailiff tried to put me in the back. I wouldn’t let him if I was big enough. I wouldn’t let him. I would say “No,” I am going to defend myself.
But I am not big enough so I have to do what I am told. That is what I always done anyway.
So you go on to facts and facts, and without recalling the facts, and looking at the evidence, and recalling the witnesses, I couldn’t stick completely with the total reality of the case.
Gutierrez, Sergeant Gutierrez, a cauliflower ear, experience, tough police officer with probably 20 years of experience of interrogating people.
On top of his thought, several human beings lived for justice, law and order. He is a good human being, has a family and has children, believes in what he is doing, gets his pay check for it.
But at the same time he will take a child, 17 years old, fragile minded child, and he programs her with questions because the inference has always been on the question, the question implies. The answer is only relative to the question.
So most of their answers are intelligible or unintelligible; then she goes to a mental institution and she gets on the stand and she testifies and she says this:
“I’m only testifying”—and it’s written in the record— “I’m only saying what is best for me. I am only testifying for what is best for me.”
And each witness got up here and only testified for what was best for them, they did not testify for what was best for me. They testified for what was best for them, for their own benefit.
So you say okay, and then what else did she say? Then she said, “You only see in me what you want to see in me.”
You only see in her what you put in her, because when you take LSD enough times you reach a state of nothing. You reach a state of no thought.
An example of this, if you were to be standing in a room with someone and you were loaded on LSD, and the guy says, “do you like my sport coat?”
And the guy would probably not pay any attention to him and say, “I bought this sport coat at Penney’s,” and then he still would not pay any attention to him. About two or three minutes later the guy loaded on LSD will turn around and say, “My, you have a beautiful sport coat.” Because he is only reacting; he is only reacting to the individual terminology, the person that he has in the room.
As you put two people in a cell, so would they reflect and flow on each other like as if water would seek a level.
I have been in a cell with a guy 80 years old, and I listened to everything he said.
“What did you do then?”
And he explains to me his whole life, and I sat there and I listened, and I experienced vicariously his whole being, his whole life, and I look at him and he is one of my fathers.
But he is also another one of your society’s rejects.
And it is the same thing that has happened with Dianne Bluestein. You’ve got around her, and you’ve offered her a lot of fathering, a lot of strings to hold to, then you have offered her her suggestions, and you bought her dresses and you have taken her in and given her love in a foster home that she has always needed.
Now, will you give her that when you find out she likes to make love, or are you going to look at her like she’s a dirty little evil nasty girl, and kick her out of the house because you have thought like that and don’t want to admit it?
Will you lock her back up when you are through with her?
Where does the garbage go, as we have tin cans and garbage alongside of the road, and oil slicks in the water, so you have people, and I am one of your garbage people. I am one of your motorcycle people. I am one of what you want to call hippies.
I never thought about being a hippie. I don’t know what a hippie is.
A hippie is generally a guy that’s pretty nice. He will give you a shirt, and a flower, and he will give you a smile, and he walks down the road.
But don’t try to tell him nothing. He ain’t listening to nobody. He got his own thoughts. You try to tell him something and he will say “Well, if that’s your bag.”
He is finding himself. Yes, those children there were finding themselves. Whatever they did, if they did whatever they did, or whatever they did is up to them. They will have to explain to you that. I’m just explaining to you what I am explaining to you.
Everything is simple to me. It is what it is because that is what it is. It doesn’t go any further.
What? That is all there is.
Why? Why comes from your mother. Your mother teaches you “Why, why, why?” You go around asking your mother why and she keeps telling you “Because, because, because,” and she laces your little brain with because and:
“Because. Why? Because. Why?”
And you accept everything you are told because you don’t know any different. If you had two mothers, one to tell you one thing and one to tell you another, then your mind might be left where mine was. If you had a dozen parents that you went around and couldn’t believe anything you were told, but then you couldn’t disbelieve anything you were told. And it’s the same thing with this court.
I don’t believe what these witnesses get up here and say, but I don’t disbelieve them either.
I won’t challenge them. If the guy says “Well, you’re no good,” I say “Okay. If that is what you want to believe, that’s okay with me.”
I don’t care what you believe. I know what I am. You care what I think of you? Do you care what I think of you? Do you care what my opinion is? No, I hardly think so.
I don’t think any of you care about anything other than yourselves because when you find yourselves, you find that everybody is out for themselves anyway.
It looks that way to me here, the money that has been made, the things that I cannot talk about, and I know I cannot talk about I won’t talk about, and I will keep quiet about those things.
How much money has passed over this case? How sensational do you think that you have made this case?
I never made it sensational. I was hiding in the desert. You come and got me, remember? Or could you prove that? What can you prove?
The only thing you can prove is what you can prove to yourselves, and you can sit here and build a lot in that jury’s mind, and they are still going to interject their personalities on you. They are going to interject their inadequate feelings; they are going to interject what they think.
I look at the jury and they won’t look at me. So I wonder why they won’t look at me.
I look at them. Have they judged me already?
Before the case was presented they would not look at me. They are afraid of me, and do you know why they are afraid of me? Because of the newspapers.
You projected fear, you projected fear.
You made me a monster, and I have to live with that the rest of my life because I cannot fight this case.
If I could fight this case, and I could present this case, I would take that monster back and I would take that fear back. Then you could find something else to put your fear on because it’s all your fear.
You look for something to project it on, and you pick a little old scroungy nobody that eats out of a garbage can, that nobody wants, that was kicked out of the penitentiary; that has been drugged through every hell hole you can think of, and you drag him and put him into a courtroom.
You expect to break me? Impossible, you broke me years ago; you killed me years ago; I sat in a cell and the guy opened the door and he said, “You want out?”
I looked at him and I said, “Do you want out? Do you want out? You are in jail, all of you, and your procedure. The procedure that is on you? It’s worse than the procedure that is on me. I like it in there.
I like it in there, it’s peaceful. I just don’t like coming to the courtroom. I would like to get this over with as soon as possible, and I’m sure everyone else would like to get it over with, too.
Without being able to prepare a case, without being able to confront the witnesses and to bring out the emotions, and to bring out the reasons why witnesses say what they say, and why this hideous thing has developed into the trauma that it’s moved into, would take a bigger courtroom, and it would take a bigger public, a bigger press, because you all, as big as you are, and you know what you are as I know what you are, and I like you anyway.
I don’t want to keep rehashing the same thing over. There are so many things you can get into, your Honor, that I have no thoughts on.
It is hard to think when you really don’t care too much one way or the other.
THE COURT: Your statement is purely voluntary, Mr. Manson, you don’t have to say anything or any more if you don’t want to.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, I want the record to reveal I cannot agree with your Honor’s statement.
MR. FITZGERALD: It might be a convenient time to recess, your Honor, it’s just a few minutes to 12:00.
THE WITNESS: I was released from the penitentiary and I learned one lesson in the penitentiary, you don’t tell nobody nothing.
You listen. When you are little you keep your mouth shut, and when someone says, “Sit down,” you sit down unless you know you can whip him, and if you know you can whip him then you stand up and whip him and you tell him to sit down.
Well, I pretty much sit down. I have learned to sit down because I have been whipped plenty of times for not sitting down and I have learned not to tell people something they don’t agree with.
If a guy comes up and he says, “The Yankees are the best ball team,” I am not going to argue with that man.
If he wants the Yankees to be the best ball team, it’s okay with me, so I look at him and I say, “Yeah, the Yankees are a good ball club.”
And somebody else says, “The Dodgers are good.” I will agree with that. I will agree with anything they tell me. That is all I have done since I have been out of the penitentiary.
I agreed with every one of you. I did the best I could to get along with you, and I have not directed one of you to do anything other than what you wanted to do.
I have always said this, you do what your love tells you and I do what my love tells me.
Now, if my love tells me to stand up there and fight, I will stand up there and fight if I have to.
But if there is any way that my personality can get around it, I try my best to get around any kind of thing that is going to disturb my peace, because all I want is to be just at peace, whatever that takes.
Now, in death you might find peace, and soon I may start looking in death to find my peace.
I have reflected in your society yourselves, right back at yourselves, and each one of these young girls was without a home.
Each one of these young boys was without a home.
I showed them the best I could what I would do as a father, as a human being to be responsible for themselves, not to be weak and not to lean on me.
And I have told them many times I don’t want no weak people around me. “If you are not strong enough to stand on your own, don’t come and ask me what to do. You know what to do.
This is one of the philosophies that everyone is mad at me, because of the children. I always let the children go.
“You can’t let the children go down there by themselves.”
I said, “Let the children go down. If he falls, that is how he learns, that is how you become strong, by falling.”
They said, “You are not supposed to let the children do that. You are supposed to guide them.”
I said, “Guide them into what? Guide them into what you have got them guided into? Guide them into dope? Guide them into getting raped on street corners? Guide them into the armies?”
I said, “No, let the children loose and follow them.” That is what I did on the desert; that is what I was doing, following your children, the ones you didn’t want, each and every one of them.
I never asked them to come with me; they asked me.
THE COURT: We are going to recess at this time, Mr. Manson, you may step down.
You may resume your statement after the noon recess.
The Court will recess at this time until 1:45.
(Whereupon, a recess was taken to reconvene at 1:45 p.m., same day.)
NOVEMBER 20, 1970
1:53 o’clock p.m.
(The following proceedings occur in open court. All counsel and defendants present. Jury absent.)
THE COURT: All parties and counsel are present. The jury is not present.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, may I address the Court?
THE COURT: Yes.
MR. KANAREK: I gather that the record will reflect, your Honor, and I am sure, hopefully, your Honor doesn’t object to my previous remarks in connection with Mr. Manson and in connection with the other three defendants, may they be deemed incorporated by reference here, just by way of reiteration, your Honor?
THE COURT: I haven’t the slightest idea of what you are talking about, Mr. Kanarek.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, I believe what this Court is doing flies in the face of everything that our courts stand for, everything that lawyers stand for, in connection with effective right to counsel, in connection with the—
THE COURT: You have made this argument before.
MR. KANAREK: Yes. I just want to make sure that no one is going to say, in future proceedings, that I am acquiescing. That is the point.
The Attorney General now of the State of California is Mr. Younger, or probably will be at some time in the future. You know, they can’t have their cake and eat it at the same time.
I just want the record to reflect, may it be deemed that all my previous remarks are reiterated at this point in connection with Mr. Manson taking the stand, and in connection with our comments in chambers, and in connection with the defendants.
I believe that these three female defendants, certain remarks, were made concerning them, may they be deemed reiterated here?
THE COURT: Be deemed reiterated?
MR. KANAREK: Yes.
THE COURT: Do you want to incorporate them by reference? Is that what you mean?
MR. KANAREK: May I?
THE COURT: Very well.
MR. KANAREK: Thank you, your Honor.
THE COURT: Now, Mr. Manson, I want to remind you, sir, that if you desire to testify in front of the jury you will have to confine your testimony to matters that are relevant to the issues in the case.
Do you have anything further you wish to say?
MR. KANAREK: May I say this in regard—
THE COURT: Don’t interrupt the proceedings, Mr. Kanarek.
MR. KANAREK: May I make a motion to the Court?
THE COURT: Very well.
MR. KANAREK: I would move that the Court not allow Mr. Manson to testify at this point because Mr. Manson is not a lawyer, and what is relevant and what is material many times—
THE COURT: If you are making an objection, it is overruled.
Do you have anything further to say, Mr. Manson?
called as a witness in his own behalf, having been first duly sworn, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:
THE WITNESS: There’s been a lot of talk about a bottomless pit. I found a hole in the desert that goes down into a river that runs north underground, and I call it a bottomless pit because where could a river be going north underground?
You could even put a boat on it.
So I covered it up and I hid it and I called it—we all go out there with dune buggies and things, and I call it “The Devil’s Hole,” and we all laugh and we joke about it.
You could call it a family joke about the bottomless pit.
How many people you could hide down in this hole?
Again, you have a magical mystery tour that most of the time there’s 40 or 50 people at the ranch playing magical mystery tour.
Randy Starr thought he was a Hollywood stunt man; he had a car all painted up and like he never done any stunts.
Another guy was a movie star but he had never been in any movies, and everybody was just playing, a part, you know, like most people get stuck in one part, but like we were just playing different parts every day.
One day you put on a cowboy hat and say shoot somebody, or the next, you might have a knife, be a knife fighter, or go off in the woods for a month or two to be an Indian, or just like a bunch of little kids playing.
Then you establish a reality within that reality of play acting.
And then you get to conspiracy. The power of suggestion is stronger than any conspiracy that you could ever enter into.
The powers of the brain are so—so vast, it’s beyond understanding. It’s beyond thinking. It’s beyond comprehension.
So to offer a conspiracy might be to sit in your car and think bad thoughts about someone and watch them have an accident in front of you.
Or would it be a conspiracy for your wife to mention to you 20 times a day, “You know, you’re going blind, George; you know how your eyes are, you’re just going blind; we pray to God, and you’re going blind, and you’re going blind,” and she keeps telling the old man he’s going blind until he goes blind.
Is that a conspiracy?
Is it a conspiracy that the music is telling the youth to rise against the establishment because the establishment is rapidly destroying things? Is that a conspiracy?
Where does conspiracy come in? Does it come in that—
I have showed people how I think by what I do, not as much as what I say as what I do that counts, and they look at what I do and then they try to do it also, and sometimes they are made weak by their parents and cannot stand up.
But is that my fault?
Is it my fault that your children do what they do?
Now, the girls were talking about testifying. If the girls come up here to testify and they said anything good about me, you would have to reverse it and say that it was bad.
You would have to say, “Well, he put the girls up to saying that, he put the girls to not telling the truth.”
Then you say the truth is as I am saying it, but then when it is gone, tomorrow it is gone, it changes, it’s another day and it is a new truth, as it constantly moves thousands of miles an hour through space.
Hippie cult leader, actually, hippie cult leader, that is your words. I am a dumb country boy who never grew up.
I went to jail when I was eight years old and I got out when I was 32.
I have never adjusted to your free world. I am still that stupid, corn picking country boy that I always have been.
If you tend to compliment a contradiction about yourself, you can live in that confusion. To me it’s all simple right here, right now, and each of us knew what we did, and I know what I did, and I know what I’m going to do, and what you do is up to you.
I don’t recognize the courtroom. I recognize the press and I recognize the people.
THE COURT: Have you completed your statement, Mr. Manson?
THE WITNESS: You could go on forever. You can just talk endless words. It don’t mean anything.
I don’t know that it means anything. I can talk to the witnesses and ask them what they think about things, and I can bring the truth out of other people because I know what the truth is, but I cannot sit here and tell you anything that I think is important in relation to anything because like basically all I want to do is try to explain to you what you are doing to your children.
You see, you can send me to the penitentiary; it’s not big thing. I’ve been there all my life anyway.
What about your children, just a few, there is many, many more coming in the same direction; they are running in the streets and they are coming right at you.
THE COURT: Anything further?
THE WITNESS: No.
THE COURT: You may step down then.
MR. BUGLIOSI: May I cross-examine, your Honor?
MR. KANAREK: I will object to the District Attorney cross-examining on the basis that the law does not provide for any discovery of this type.
This is in the nature of discovery. It is discovery.
Our law—your Honor has been very, very zealous about People vs. Robles, some isolated case, and some comments of the Court which were taken completely out of context, and which have no application, I submit, in this case.
And your Honor is defying the law of discovery where from the very beginning, if—we can go back many, many years—the courts have made it very plain that the District Attorney cannot make discovery of a criminal defendant
THE COURT: All right, Mr. Kanarek, that will be enough.
Your argument does not make any sense, sir. This is during the course of the trial, and discovery is permitted during the trial.
MR. KANAREK: But the jury is not here, your Honor.
THE COURT: That will be enough.
You may cross-examine.
MR. KANAREK: May I finish, your Honor?
THE COURT: Sit down, sir.
MR. HUGHES: Join Mr. Kanarek’s motion.
MR. KANAREK: May I be deemed gagged then?
THE COURT: Sit down.
Q. BY MR. BUGLIOSI: Just a few questions, Charlie, and then you can take your seat at the counsel table.
You say you are already dead, is that right, Charlie?
MR. KANAREK: I object, your Honor, it is not material, competent or relevant to any issue before the Court.
THE WITNESS: Are you trying to goad me into something?
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Q. Did you say that you were already dead?
MR. KANAREK: May I have an objection? May I utter my objection?
THE COURT: Do you want a continuing objection, Mr. Kanarek?
MR. KANAREK: I don’t think, in this case, I can have a continuing objection. It is too vital.
THE COURT: Make your objection.
MR. KANAREK: My objection is that it is not responsive, relevant or material.
His state of mind—
THE COURT: I don’t want an argument. Just make the objection.
MR. KANAREK: Calling for conclusion and hearsay.
THE COURT: Overruled. You may answer.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Q. Did you say you were already dead, Charlie?
A. Dead in your mind, or dead in my mind?
Q. Define it the way you want to.
MR. KANAREK: I object.
THE WITNESS: As any child will tell you—
MR. KANAREK: My objection—
THE COURT: You are interrupting.
MR. KANAREK: I haven’t finished my objection.
THE COURT: Overruled.
Q. How long have you been dead?
A. You didn’t let me answer the question, Mr. Bugliosi.
MR. KANAREK: I object.
MR. BUGLIOSI: I think it is your attorney that is preventing you from doing so.
THE COURT: Read the last answer.
(The record was read by the reporter.)
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, if I may make this point?
THE COURT: No, you may not.
THE WITNESS: As any child will tell you, dead is when you are no more. It is just when you are not there. If you weren’t there, you would be dead.
That is what one of the witnesses said. They killed the people that drove by in the car. Because they went away, they were gone, they were dead.
BY MR. BUGLIOSI:
Q. To be precise about it, Charlie, to be precise do you know what precise means?
Q. To be exact about it, you think you have been dead for close to 2000 years, don’t you?
A. 2000 years?
MR. KANAREK: I object to that question.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. KANAREK: I haven’t made my objection.
THE WITNESS: Irving, will you please?
I can’t be in the corner there. Would you please from here?
MR. KANAREK: May I make a point to the Court?
THE COURT: You are interrupting and you are disrupting, Mr. Kanarek.
Now, let the examination proceed.
You may make your objections as we go along, but you may not interrupt the witness or counsel or the Court.
MR. KANAREK: I was trying to enunciate a legal objection.
THE COURT: No. You are trying to disrupt. We all know what you are trying to do. Stop it.
MR. KANAREK: May I be sworn, your Honor?
THE COURT: Let’s proceed.
THE WITNESS: Mr. Bugliosi, 2000 years is relative to the second we live in.
If you step out of time, if you have never lived in time, you don’t know time.
Time is like a story, like you change channels when you are watching TV.
You change channels and you are riding a horse. You change channels and you are a pirate.
Well, you change channels in your mind.
Your mind tells you what time it is. It may be 10:30 to you. But to me, the clock never moves. To me it is the same. I always run on bells.
Q. Suffice it to say, Department 104 is a long way from Calvary; is that true?
MR. KANAREK: I object.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Q. You have heard of Calvary, haven’t you?
A. I have never been to Calvary.
MR. KANAREK: Your Honor—
MR. BUGLIOSI: Q. Haven’t you told people you have?
I have experienced Calvary, but what you are talking about is the cross.
MR. KANAREK: I object.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Q. The cross?
THE COURT: Let’s get to something relevant.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Q. You testified you wanted to go back to the desert with your children; is that right?
MR. KANAREK: I object, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: That is a very good question. I wouldn’t object to it.
THE COURT: State your objection.
MR. KANAREK: On the ground that it is a solicitation of a conclusion.
What he testified to is in the record.
THE COURT: Overruled.
MR. KANAREK: I have another point to make, your Honor.
THE COURT: Sit down, Mr. Kanarek, and remain silent until the next question is asked.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Is that right, you want to go back to the desert with your children?
A. I would like to be a good father and as what my children would like me to do.
[illegible] are your children?
MR. KANAREK: I object, your Honor, if I may.
THE COURT: Overruled.
THE WITNESS: [illegible] everyone that loves me. Everyone that will return my love.
BY MR. BUGLIOSI:
Q. Do you realize, Mr. Manson, that the only people who can set you free so that you can go back to that desert is the jury in this case? You realize that?
MR. KANAREK: I object, your Honor.
MR. FITZGERALD: That is not relevant.
THE COURT: Do you have any relevant cross-examination, Mr. Bugliosi?
MR. BUGLIOSI: This is relevant.
THE COURT: Then get to it, sir.
MR. BUGLIOSI: Q. I believe you testified for about an hour today; is that correct, Mr. Manson?
A. I never paid any attention to what the time was.
Q. You testified for quite a while.
You are aware that the jury in this case never heard one single, solitary word you said. Are you aware of that?
MR. KANAREK: I object.
MR. FITZGERALD: Immaterial and irrelevant.
MR. KANAREK: It is immaterial, and I would like to make a point to the Court.
THE COURT: Sustained.
Do you have anything further, Mr. Bugliosi?
MR. BUGLIOSI: One more question, your Honor.
THE COURT: All right.
BY MR. BUGLIOSI:
Q. Mr. Manson, are you willing to testify in front of the jury and tell them the same things that you testified to here in open court today?
MR. KANAREK: Objection, your Honor.
THE WITNESS: Tell them the same things?
MR. KANAREK: I object.
THE COURT: Sustained.
You may step down.
THE WITNESS: Do you know how impossible that would be?
THE COURT: You may step down, sir.