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Leslie Van Houten: February 22, 1971 Testimony

FEBRUARY 22, 1971

MONDAY

LESLIE LOUISE VAN HOUTEN,

a defendant herein, called as a witness by and on her own behalf, being sworn, was examined and testified as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. KEITH:

Q. Leslie, were you born in Monrovia, California?

A. No. I was born in Altadena, California.

Q. That is the hospital where you were born; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. St. Luke’s?

A. Yes.

Q. At that time, your mother and father were living in Monrovia?

A. Yes.

Q. When were you born, Les?

A. August 23, 1949.

Q. And you went to school in Monrovia?

A. Yes.

Q. Grade school?

A. Yes.

Q. High school?

A. Yes.

Q. Junior high school? I forgot that.

A. Yes.

Q. And you have an older brother?

A. Yes. I have got lots of older brothers, but one—

Q. One particular older brother?

A. Yes.

Q. What is his name?

A. Paul.

Q. Do you know how old he is?

A. No.

Q. And you have a younger brother and sister?

A. Yes.

Q. What are their names?

A. Bessie and David.

Q. They were adopted by your mother and father, were they?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember how old—

A. They are war babies.

Q. I know.

Do you remember how old they were when your mother and father adopted them?

A. No.

Q. Were you a little girl at the time?

A. Yeah.

Q. Leslie, do you remember your mother testifying?

A. Yeah.

Q. And like she said, you had family meetings, you and your mother and father?

A. I didn’t remember them until she said it. Then, yes we did.

Q. Did your mother’s testimony refresh your recollection?

A. Yes. About a lot of stuff.

Q. And you remember that now?

A. What?

Q. You remember the family meetings now?

A. Yes.

Q. Where you and your mother and father, and perhaps your older brother, talked things over?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay.

Now, did you have lots of hobbies when you were a little girl? Do you remember that?

A. I played with dolls.

Q. Do you remember sewing?

A. I’d make my dolls clothes.

Q. Did you take up the sousaphone at one time?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you remember that?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you have any idea how old you were then?

A. No.

Q. Did you play in the band, a school band?

A. Yes.

Q. Was it the high school band or the junior high band, or don’t you remember?

A. I beg your pardon?

Q. Do you remember whether it was the high school band or the junior high band?

A. Yes. I played in the band all the way through elementary, junior high and high school.

Q. Playing the sousaphone?

A. Different things.

I played the drums too.

Q. Do you remember whether or not you enjoyed yourself when you were a child?

A. Yes, I enjoyed myself.

Q. Did you have a good time?

A. Yes. Up to a certain point.

Q. Do you remember your mother saying you were sort of feisty?

A. I was into everything going on in the block. I knew what everybody was doing.

Q. You had fun as a small child?

A. Yes. As much as I could.

You know, I couldn’t do certain things in the back yard because I couldn’t mess it up.

Q. Your mother wasn’t a stern disciplinarian, would you say—or was she?

A. No.

My parents, see, my parents told me that they knew that I knew how far I could go without upsetting them and how much it would hurt them to upset them. So I never did what I wanted to do because I knew it would upset them.

So, they never disciplined me.

Q. In other words, you were sort of a proper little girl?

A. Sure. Until I started learning how to sneak and not have them catch me, and then I started sneaking things.

Q. What do you mean by sneaking things?

A. To do what I wanted to do without them finding out.

Q. How old were you then?

A. Well, I did it all along. I did it all along, but really just when I started feeling really tired and miserable, I just started to do things I wanted to do.

Q. Were you a teenager then?

A. Yes.

Q. You were a homecoming princess, weren’t you, when you were a freshman and sophomore in high school?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you like that?

A. It was all right.

Q. Did you get a kick out of it?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you want to be a homecoming princess?

A. I really didn’t care one way or the other.

Q. You were just chosen by the other members of the student body?

A. Yes. The football players.

Q. And you took part in student activities, did you not, when you were younger in high school and junior high?

A. Yes. I was very active in student government and things like that.

Q. Is that because you really took an interest in it then?

A. No.

I liked winning, and I always won. So, everytime, you know, there was something to try for, I’d try and I’d win.

Q. But once you won, did you continue your interest? I mean, did you enjoy it?

A. I saw it through, but it wasn’t as interesting as trying to win.

Q. Now, after you graduated from Sawyer’s, did you go some place in the desert?

A. Yes, I went to Victorville.

Q. Did you go to Victorville shortly after, if you remember, graduating from Sawyer’s?

A. That is the next place I remember.

Q. All right, and did you go there alone or with someone?

A. I went there with two women.

Q. Were these women older than you were?

A. I don’t know. I don’t even remember their names.

Q. Was one of their names Dee, by any chance?

A. Somebody told me it was, but I didn’t remember that.

She was a blonde with blue eyes and she had a little tiny year and a half year old kid—baby.

Q. Had you known these two women or girls, as the case may be, for some time?

A. No, I just met them through a friend of mine.

Q. Just before going to Victorville?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you go to a cattle ranch in Victorville?

A. Yes, a great big cattle ranch.

Q. And was there a girl or woman who owned the cattle ranch?

A. There was a girl whose parents were wealthy and they owned the cattle ranch and we went there and we lived on it, and her parents were living at Palm Springs or you know, one of those desert towns.

Q. Do you have any recollection, Les, about how long you stayed in Victorville?

A. Oh, long enough to check it out, you know, long enough to get to know it.

Q. Did you take acid out there with the other girls with whom you went?

A. I remember taking acid out there.

Q. Incidentally, did you tell your mother or father that you were going to Victorville or did you just go?

A. I don’t know if I told them or not. I didn’t see any reason to tell them.

Q. Is it difficult for you now, Les, to comprehend periods of time?

A. I don’t see any point in it, that is the only reason.

Q. But can you, if you tried?

A. It comes back like, you know, in pictures, different places.

Q. Can you tell us if you spent a long period of time in Victorville or a relatively short period?

A. No, but I ended up in San Francisco.

Q. I know that. We will get to that next.

A. I don’t know how long.

Q. All right. So you went to San Francisco?

A. Yes.

Q. And with whom did you go?

A. The blonde.

Q. Whose name you cannot remember?

A. My father told me her name was Dee.

Q. Did you stay with Dee in San Francisco?

A. Yes.

Q. In the Haight-Asbury area?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you like it in Haight-Asbury?

A. No, it was very frightening.

Q. There were a great many people around who scared you, is that correct?

A. It was just in general, a change from all of the things that I had heard when I was younger.

Q. You mean heard about Haight-Asbury?

A. Yeah, you know, it started out supposedly from what I heard, there was lots of love on the street, and by the time I got there all it was was a bunch of—

It was just all gutter, the whole thing.

Q. When you were in San Francisco did you meet a young man who was with two young girls?

A. Yes.

Q. What was his name?

A. Bobby Beausoleil.

Q. Were you still staying with [illegible] that you went to San Francisco with from Victorville when you met Bobby?

A. Yes.

Q. And was this sort of a chance encounter?

Perhaps you could tell us. Do you remember how it came about that you met him?

A. She and I were just living at the house with her husband, and I went somewhere one night and I came home, and Bobby and Gypsy and Gail were there with Hocus and Bo, the dogs.

Q. Gypsy is the Catherine Share that testified here?

A. Yes.

Gypsy.

Q. And Gail was another girl?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you eventually go some place with Bobby and Gypsy and Gail?

A. That next day I did.

We started up for Oregon, but we never made it.

Q. How did it come about that you went with Bobby and Gypsy and Gail with such suddenness we might say, the next day?

A. I just felt such a good feeling around them and it was a feeling I had all my life been looking for, to be in someone else.

In fact when I was a little child, I remember I used to look in the mirror and wonder why nobody else—why I couldn’t be as happy with other people as I was within myself. If that makes any sense? And when I met these people, it was like I was seeing the people that I had always just wanted to be with, to have a good time, and they lived for the moment in everything they did. It was so obvious, their complete freedom and just wish to experience.

Q. So you started out for Oregon but didn’t make it?

A. Yes.

Q. Did Bobby have some kind of a vehicle at that time?

A. Yes. He had the Randy Starr pickup truck with his Round-Up somebody.

It was like a little caravan of people where we were cowboys.

“And his stuntmen.” That is what it was. We were his stunt team and he was Randy Starr.

Q. You were very attracted Bobby?

A. Yes.

Q. And you fell in love with him, didn’t you?

A. Yes. Almost immediately.

Q. You still are in love with him?

 

[Page 23993 is missing from the trial transcript.]

 

Q. But later on?

A. Yes. Because they were used to showing how they could express themselves, and I was used to hiding it.

So, at first Gypsy and I had to go through a few things before I would let myself actually, you know, be what I wanted to be around her.

Q. You liked Gypsy very much then too?

A. Yes.

Q. She was easy to get along with and be with?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you go to different places in California with Bobby and Gypsy and Gail?

A. Yes. We traveled all around, here and there.

Q. Small towns?

A. Yes.

Q. Woods?

A. Yes.

We spent a lot of time up above San Francisco in the real dense woods. You know, the redwoods, or whatever it is called, way back up in there.

And then a lot of times on the ocean front.

Q. Would you sort of camp out?

A. Yeah.

Well, by then we had built this tent on the back of the truck. We built it at his mom and dad’s with

 

[Pages 23995-23999 are missing from the trial transcript.]

 

Q. Did you enjoy yourself during this wandering existence with Bobby and the other girls?

A. Yes.

Q. And what was there about your existence then that you enjoyed so much?

A. Nothing was planned, everything happened for the moment at the moment just freedom.

Where someone would ask us to come over, we would go over. Or if someone was down the road, we would just pick them up, and just do whatever there was to do.

There was no idea for tomorrow, because we never, you know, we didn’t know tomorrow would even ever be there.

Q. So I take it that you lived for the day and filled your days with the most pleasurable existence that you could; is that right?

A. Everything was pleasurable.

Q. During that period of time, as far as you were concerned, was there any pain or unhappiness within you?

A. No.

Q. Now, Les, nonetheless, was there, you might say, a discordant note within the four of you?

A. One of the girls was jealous because there was three women to one man, and she would always pick fights with Bobby to get his attention.

Q. Was that Gail?

 

[Pages 24001-24033 are missing from the trial transcript.]

 

Q. By “stumblers,” you are referring to—

A. Red devils.

Reds is a downer.

Q. It is a pill, isn’t it?

A. I don’t know what it is. I just know that it really messes up people.

Q. Speaking of that, by that time had you felt that you were messed up by all the LSD you had taken?

A. No.

LSD doesn’t make you sloppy.

Q. How does it make you, Leslie?

A. Alert.

Q. Perhaps you could describe generally its effects without going into any specific details.

A. Describe LSD’s effects?

Q. Did it make you feel you were in a fancy-land?

A. No. You just see things for what it is when you are on LSD.

You see a lot of people aren’t ready to look at it, so they freak out and they make excuses for it. But it just lets you look at yourself.

Q. Do you term yourself as an acid freak?

A. Sure. I love it.

Q. Is that what you mean by an acid freak, somebody that loves it?

A. Yes. That is what they call it.

I only say I am because everybody calls me one, you know.

Q. But you don’t feel you are any different, I take it, just because you have taken so much LSD over the years?

A. Well, I am happier than a lot of people are.

Q. Has it had some effect on your mind or thinking that you can recognize sitting there on the stand?

A. In the witness box, rather than thinking, I watch.

Q. Could you tell us what you mean when you say “rather than thinking, I watch”?

A. Well, like in this room, rather than sitting here-thinking about—well, explain?

Q. I know it’s hard to explain.

A. I don’t think so much of myself, I watch what is going on around me and what I can do to become closer to people who I am around.

I like doing.

Q. Did you also take hash?

A. You smoke hash. And I smoked it, yes.

Q. What does that do for you?

What effect did you get from hash?

A. Well, you just smoke it. I don’t know what it does for you.

Q. Does it make you feel happy and gay or lightheaded?

A. Well, I was happy and gay anyway.

I think I just smoked it because someone would hand it to me in a pipe, and I’d just smoke it.

You know, it would make things—I don’t know how to describe it.

Q. All right.

Is hash stronger than marijuana?

A. It is more refined. I have heard that hashish is supposed to be the left over strong part of marijuana.

They smoke it all the time in India.

Q. You enjoyed smoking hash?

A. Yes.

Q. More than marijuana?

A. I never compared them.

Q. You just did what you did?

A. Sure.

Q. Now, at some time did you have occasion to meet a man named Gary Hinman?

A. Yes, I did.

MR. KEITH: May we approach the bench, your Honor?

THE COURT: You may.

(The following proceedings were had at the bench out of the hearing of the jury:)

MR. KEITH: If the Court please, I am about to get, as the Court recognizes, into possibly incriminating matters. I am not at all happy about my client testifying regarding the Gary Hinman incident, but I think she very much wants to do so, and I could do the same thing Mr. Fitzgerald did and ask her outside the presence of the jury if this is what she wants to do.

THE COURT: Is she incriminating herself or others?

MR. KEITH: No, possibly herself. It would tend to incriminate her. The Hinman, LaBianca—we are getting into that area.

THE COURT: I understand that. I just did not understand whether you thought she was getting into incriminating matters as to herself or as to others.

MR. KEITH: She would be incriminating others, too.

THE COURT: Do you wish to speak to her now while she is on the witness stand?

MR. KEITH: I know what her state of mind is. I think it should be on the record, though I suppose I can.

THE COURT: I am certain you discussed this with her.

MR. KEITH: Hours and hours and hours.

I just want to let the record show my displeasure, but this is what she wants to do and I respect her wishes.

MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Honor, I think it would be appropriate to have an Aranda-Bruton type of excision, like we had in connection with Roni Howard and Virginia Graham.

I do so move, based upon previous arguments to this Court.

MR. KEITH: To me that is a problem, although she is a declarant, she is on the witness stand.

MR. KANAREK: She may be saying what somebody told her, though, your Honor.

THE COURT: Then make your objection, if that is the case.

MR. KANAREK: In order to avoid the prejudice, it would seem to me based on equal protection and due process I should be allowed the same privilege the prosecution had in going over it in advance.

THE COURT: It is an entirely different problem. Anything further?

MR. KEITH: No.

(The following proceedings were had in open court in the presence and hearing of the jury:)

Q. BY MR. KEITH: Leslie, at some time did you go to a house or an apartment that was occupied by Gary Hinman?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. And with whom did you go?

A. Bobby and Sadie.

Q. Bobby Beausoleil?

A. Yes.

Q. And Susan Atkins?

A. Yes.

Q. And had you ever met or even heard of Hinman before this time?

A. No, I had not.

Q. How did it come about—

A. I might have heard about him.

Q. All right.

A. I know, so many names went by, but I have never seen him.

Q. Did you go to Hinman’s apartment on one of these occasions that Bobby would visit the Spahn Ranch?

A. Yes, Bobby had wanted me to help him build a three-wheeler Harley Davidson, so he was staying at the ranch so I could help him put it together.

Q. Do you have any idea when this was when you went to Hinman’s apartment?

A. No, I know when it was now.

Q. Well, tell us what you know now.

A. I know that it was in the summer.

Q. Of ’69?

A. It must have been.

Q. All right, were you still in love with Bobby at that time?

A. Sure.

Q. Whatever happened to Gail, if you know?

A. I didn’t even ask. I think she was up at Berkeley, going to school, I’m not sure.

Q. So you went with Bobby and Sadie to Hinman’s?

A. Yes, it was more like a house.

Q. Did you meet Hinman there?

A. Yes, I met him.

Q. Did you have any idea at the time you went to Hinman’s house of the purpose of the visit?

A. It had something to do with business, but I didn’t know what kind and I didn’t ask.

Q. Was this business between Bobby and Gary Hinman?

A. I guess so, I didn’t even ask that.

Q. Then how come Sadia was along? She went?

A. Bobby said something, because Gary knew Sadie, you know.

I guess Sadie and Gary had been close, I don’t know.

All I know is Bobby asked me to go and I liked to go anywhere with Bobby.

Q. So I gather you met Mr. Hinman at his house or apartment, whatever it may have been?

A. Yes, we met.

Q. And what happened after you got there, was he alone?

A. Yes, he was alone.

Q. What happened next? What went on?

A. What went on?

Q. Sure.

A. We got there, and we were carrying on a friendly conversation.

Then I was helping Sadie do something in the kitchen. There was an argument.

Q. Was there an argument between Bobby and Gary Hinman?

A. Yes, yes.

Bobby and Gary started fighting and Bobby punched Gary pretty hard.

Then Sadie got on the phone. Charlie and Bruce came over.

Q. Where did Charlie and Bruce come from, if you know?

A. I imagine Sadie called them.

Q. At the Spahn ranch?

A. You know, I was trying to keep Bobby calmed down. I never seen him go off like that before.

Q. You don’t know the subject matter of the argument they had?

A. No.

Q. All right, did Bobby knocked Gary’s tooth out, or loose, or something?

A. Well, he punched him pretty hard in the mouth.

Then—

Q. Eventually did Charlie and Bruce Davis arrive?

A. Yeah, they came.

Q. What happened next after they arrived?

A. They came over and all of the men went into the living room and were talking, and again I was in the kitchen, I spent a lot of the time in the kitchen because I didn’t know what was going on.

Then Bobby and Bruce and Charlie came into the kitchen and they were discussing something, and I don’t know what.

Q. And who came in the kitchen? Let’s go slowly.

A. Bobby, Bruce and Charlie came into the kitchen.

Q. They were having a discussion about something?

A. Yeah.

Q. And did the discussion continue in the kitchen?

A. Yeah, you know, they just—you know how people are, they just came in talking.

Q. I see.

A. I wasn’t even paying any attention because it wasn’t any of my business and I didn’t want to make it my business.

Q. Where was Sadie at that time?

A. In the kitchen with me.

Q. Then what happened?

A. Then Gary came in with a gun and he shot it, and the gun went and it missed the group of men and it went into the kitchen wall.

It was like cabinets, so I guess in the course of him shooting, it looked like he was trying to hit Charlie.

Charlie had on a sword, add I guess Charlie, you know, jerked it out and went to defend himself and he cut Gary’s ear.

So—

Q. This sword, was this a pirate-like sword?

A. Yeah, it looks the one they have been bringing up all the time.

Q. And did you see Charlie wear that sword from time to time before this—

A. Sure.

Q. Did Charlie play pirate once in a while?

A. Now and then, yeah.

Q. That was one of his roles in the magical mystery tour?

A. Sure, I even had a pirate outfit.

Q. You played pirate from time to time also?

A. Well, you know, I liked to be with the guys, sometimes, too.

Q. I mean you played the role of a pirate too?

A. Yeah, that’s when I would wear my knife, I would wear my knife other times too, though.

Well, anyway Charlie had the sword and he took it, you know, like I say.

Anyway, Gary got cut and—

Q. Then what happened when Gary got cut.

A. You know, well, Charlie just stood there looking.

It looked like to me, like he wasn’t quite sure just what had happened, and Sadie was all freaked out, because Sadie is always, you know, had a heavy thing for Charlie.

So I said, you know, I said to Bruce and Charlie, “Just go,” you know, “Just go, and I will do everything I can to take care of this situation.”

So let’s see—

Q. Did Charlie and Bruce go?

A. Yeah, they started out the house.

And Gary went running, you know, not running, because it was a small house, but went after them again.

And Sadie went toward Gary, and I’m not sure just what she did, but somehow she banged him on the head with the gun a couple of times because he ended up laying in the living room.

Q. Did you see how Sadie got a gun?

A. I didn’t see it because, you know, it’s a small hallway, you know, and I didn’t really see.

Q. You did not actually see Sadie then hit Hinman over the head with anything.

You just know he was hit over the head.

A. Looking back on it, and figuring it out, she must have, you know.

But as to what my eyes actually saw, I did not see it.

Q. Where was Bobby when this was going on?

A. Bobby was still in the kitchen with me. It’s a small house.

Q. So evidently did Charlie and Bruce leave?

A. They left right then. They were already out by the time Sadie had done that, and they did not come back.

Q. How about Bobby, did he leave?

A. Bobby stayed.

Q. How about Bobby, did he leave?

A. Bobby stayed.

Q. How long did Bobby stay after Hinman was hit over the head?

A. Well, you see, Sadie was going to try to help Gary get better and we spent that night, and we spent half of the next day, and I kept, you know—

Sadie would tell me, you know, cook some broth or do this and do that.

And I kept trying to ask her, you know, well, we should get some kind of medical help.

But Sadie was sure that Gary could get over it and she just would take care of him, and she chanted over him.

Q. Did you want Gary to be admitted to a hospital, is that what you are saying?

A. Well, I will tell you, I did not particularly want to look at what had happened to him so, you know, I left that up to Sadie’s judgment.

She kept saying he would be all right, and I wouldn’t go in the room.

I would just stay in the kitchen and help out.

Q. Did I understand you to say you heard her chant?

A. Yes, you know, she was doing all kinds of things over him, you know.

I imagine he could talk, I heard them mumbling to each other.

I imagined Gary would tell her if it was bad enough.

Q. Do you have any recollection of what Sadie chanted over Gary’s body?

A. No.

Q. Why did you use the expression “chant”, did it sound like she was chanting?

A. Yes, you know, continuous repetition of the same thought over and over, you know.

They do it when you meditate. You do it with beads, you know, you go like this with your beads and you chant something over and over.

Q. Were you on a trip when this was all going on, or don’t you remember, or are you on a constant trip?

A. I don’t know if I was but, you know, I got—

I was not accustomed to such a thing going on.

Q. Had you ever viewed violence or—

Strike that.

Had you ever viewed violence of that nature before?

A. People getting cut and bloody stuff?

Q. Yes.

A. No.

Q. All right, you stayed there overnight?

A. Yes, we did, and then it came to the next afternoon.

Q. Did you stay in the kitchen?

A. Also there was a patio. His house had a main living room and a patio and a kitchen.

Bobby and I spent what time I wasn’t in the kitchen, Bobby and I would spend in the patio.

Q. Bobby stayed on?

A. Yeah, I know he felt kind of like he was in a weird situation, you know.

And so the next afternoon I told him to leave; that I could handle it.

Q. Did Bobby do anything about getting medical attention for Hinman?

A. He was going to leave a couple of times and I would tell him no.

In other words, you know, I didn’t want to bring any police into it.

And from the way Sadie talked, she made it sound like Gary was going to get better fast. I hadn’t seen how bad the cut was, all I saw was blood.

Q. Coming from Gary’s ears?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know whether or not he was bleeding from his scalp, his head?

A. Like I say, I didn’t look at it.

Q. All right, the next day did something else unusual happen?

A. Yes, something very unusual happened.

Q. What happened?

A. I was, you know, I told Bobby to go and Bobby left, and I’d been having some discussions with Sadie, you know.

And I was just about ready to take, you know, make the move to take Gary to the hospital.

And I don’t recall what I was doing at the time but I heard a bunch of weird, strange, strange noises, and when I got into the living room Gary was stabbed and there was some writings on the wall, and Sadie was still, you know—it was a very ugly thing that I saw.

Q. Was Sadie there with him alone?

A. Of course.

Q. Do you remember what was written on the wall?

A. I didn’t at the time, but now I remember.

Q. Now you know what it was, but at the time did you pay any particular attention to what was on the wall?

A. I just saw writing.

Q. Did it appear to be in blood?

A. Yes, it did.

Q. What was Sadie doing when you walked in and found Gary stabbed and the bloody writing on the wall?

A. She was still chanting.

Q. Did Gary appear to be dead, or didn’t you take that close a look?

A. He was lying there.

Q. Not moving?

A. Not moving.

Q. Then, what happened? What did you do and what did Susan do after you walked in and saw this?

A. We left in a Volkswagen bus.

Q. Whose bus was it if you know?

A. I believe it was Gary’s.

Q. Do you know where Sadie got the knife that she used to stab Hinman to death?

A. Most likely she was wearing it, I don’t know.

Q. Did you see Sadie put the knife some place that she used?

A. No. I told her, you know, it would be wise for her to get rid of it.

Q. But you don’t know whether she did that or not?

A. Obviously she did not.

Q. You mean the knife was found at sometime later?

A. Yes, and Bobby was arrested for the murder of Gary.

Q. Now, you got back to Spahn Ranch in a Volkswagen bus, you say?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you know who the owner of the bus was?

A. Like I said, I believed that the owner was Gary.

Q. Did you know at the time you were driving back?

A. Well, I don’t remember who told me, but someone told me, you know, that that was okay to drive.

Q. Who did the driving, do you remember?

A. I did.

Q. Now, when you returned to Spahn Ranch did you or Sadie, to your knowledge, tell anything—tell anybody about what happened to Gary Hinman?

A. I went immediately to Patricia.

Q. Was Patricia your closest friend at that time?

A. Yes, Patricia and I, we did just about everything together. If two people could be complete sisters, it was Patricia and myself.

Q. By that time, to your recollection, Les, had Linda Kasabian arrived at the ranch?

A. You know, I thought back and I thought back.

I don’t remember any events, any time that Linda actually came. I know she was there. I mean, like I don’t know whether it was before this or after this.

Q. Were you particularly close to Linda after she arrived?

A. No.

Q. Were you particularly close to Sadie?

A. Only through Patricia.

Q. Was Patricia somebody that you confided in?

A. Always.

Q. So you told her what had happened?

A. Immediately I did. She did not listen too much at first, but then she started listening.

Q. And did you and Patricia—strike that.

At some time after you returned to Spahn Ranch, did Bobby Beausoleil get arrested?

A. Yes.

Q. Was he at the ranch when he was arrested, or some place else, if you know?

A. No, he was some place else.

He left—he was going to go on another journey of his.

So I rolled him up a sleeping bag and I think I gave him a few groceries to take because I wasn’t going to go with him.

Q. Why did you go with him?

A. Because—I wanted him to stay with me. I didn’t want him, you know, it was one of my little games I was playing with him.

So he left, and—

Q. Did he leave alone?

A. I don’t know. I did not see him pull out, but we got a phone call and it was—

I did not answer and I did not talk on the phone but it was, you know, so much as to say that Bobby had been arrested for murder.

Q. To your knowledge did Bobby have anything to do with Gary Hinman’s killing?

A. To my knowledge I sent him out of the house in the afternoon.

Q. Before Hinman was killed?

A. Yeah.

Now, I had told Bobby what happened after he left.

Q. You mean when you got back to the ranch you confided in Bobby Beausoleil too about what, had happened?

A. Yeah, not immediately, but thereafter.

Q. So Bobby left and you heard later that he had been arrested for murder?

A. Yeah.

Q. And what did you do if anything when you heard that?

A. What did I do?

Q. Other than get very upset, no doubt, did you do anything else?

Did you have a conversation with any of the girls?

A. Yeah, we talked about it.

MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, I would like to interrupt, but may we approach the bench.

Counsel—we agree it’s a matter we must approach the bench, your Honor.

THE COURT: Very well.

(The following proceedings were had at the bench out of the hearing of the jury:)

MR. KANAREK: Mr. Manson informs me he has to go to the bathroom very bad, your Honor.

THE COURT: I will recess at this time. I have to go to a meeting anyway at the courtroom this noon.

I have to do something else first, so we will recess now.

(The following proceedings were had in open court in the presence and hearing of the jury:)

THE COURT: We are going to recess a few minutes early ladies and gentlemen; do not converse with anyone or form or express any opinion regarding penalty until that issue is finally submitted to you.

The court will recess until 1:45.

(Noon recess.)

FEBRUARY 22, 1971

MONDAY,

1:55 P.M.

(Whereupon, the following proceedings take place in open court. All defendants, counsel and jurors present:)

THE COURT: All parties, counsel and jurors are present.

You may continue, Mr. Keith.

MR. KEITH: Thank you, your Honor.

 

LESLIE LOUISE VAN HOUTEN,

the witness on the stand at the time of the recess, resumed the stand and testified further as follows:

DIRECT EXAMINATION (CONTINUING)

BY MR. KEITH:

Q. Leslie, we were talking about Bobby Beausoleil and Hinman at the time of the noon recess, and you told us, I believe, that Bobby was arrested for Hinman’s murder.

Now, to your knowledge, was Bobby ultimately tried and convicted of Hinman’s murder?

A. Yes.

He was waiting to go to trial, though, during the summer, I believe.

Q. Yes. But since that time?

A. Yes.

He is up on the row now, death row.

Q. He was convicted of first-degree murder?

A. Yes.

Q. And you did not testify in his behalf at that trial, did you?

A. No, I did not.

Q. You did not testify in behalf of the prosecution either, did you?

A. No, I did not.

Q. Do you know a girl named Mary Brunner?

A. Yes, I know Mary.

Q. Was she one of the girls at the Spahn Ranch?

A. Yes.

Q. To your knowledge, she was one of the original girls that went with Mr. Manson; is that right?

If you know. Don’t guess.

A. So I have been told.

Q. All right.

She testified for the prosecution in that case, did she not?

A. Yes, she did.

Q. To your knowledge, was Mary Brunner there at the Hinman residence during the proceedings that you have described?

A. No.

Q. Did she, to your knowledge, know Bobby Beausoleil?

A. Sure.

Q. Did all the girls know Bobby?

A. Yes.

Q. Was that because Bobby was a frequent visitor at the Spahn Ranch?

A. Sure.

Q. Did Bobby ever go to the desert, incidentally, with you?

A. Yes.

Q. He was there, too, at Barker Ranch?

A. He was there as much as any of the other guys were there.

Q. Did Bobby, to your knowledge, Bobby Beausoleil, ever ask that you testify in his behalf at his trial?

A. I went to see him at one time after he had been convicted, and I asked him, you know, if he wouldn’t let me come forth.

And also, he called me a couple of times while we were still living at Spahn’s, and he said, “No,” that he felt that, you know, he felt kind of a responsibility, that he had took me over there and he didn’t want me to become involved, because what happened at that house was out of my hands, I had nothing to do with it.

Q. Well, do you know whether or not Mary Brunner testified that Bobby was the one—

A. That’s what I heard. She got up and testified.

Q. —who killed Hinman?

A. That is what I heard, she got up and testified that he was the one.

Q. To your knowledge was there any bad blood between Mary Brunner and Beausoleil?

A. No, no.

Q. Everybody loved Bobby, isn’t that right?

A. Well, now, how would I know if everybody loved Bobby, I know some people who don’t particularly care for him.

Q. Well, that was a little too broad a question. That was a little too broad a question.

A. You see, Mary was arrested for forgery once, and the police kept messing around with Pooh Bear.

Now, that could have something to do with it. I don’t know why she did; I often thought about it, I don’t know why Mary did that.

Q. Now, at any rate, getting back to the ranch, was there ever any discussion amongst you or Linda Kasabian or Gypsy or Patricia Krenwinkel or Sadie about killing other people?

A. Yes.

Q. When did these discussions or that discussion take place?

MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, we better approach the bench if I think what is coming is going to come.

May we approach the bench, your Honor?

THE COURT: Very well.

(The following proceedings were had at the bench out of the hearing of the jury:)

MR. BUGLIOSI: Your Honor, this is just incredible!

Is he going to put on other murders or plans to murder other people?

This is a penalty trial. I would assume that the defense attorneys are seeking life imprisonment for their clients.

THE COURT: I thought he was going to do just what the two other defendants did, bring out the conversation—

MR. BUGLIOSI: I’m sorry, is that what you are going to get into now, the LaBianca or are you getting into some other murders?

MR. KEITH: I don’t know any other murders.

THE COURT: Are you talking about the “copy-cat killings”?

MR. KEITH: Yes.

MR. BUGLIOSI: I’m sorry, he said “Did you talk about other murders,” because there were other murders other than the Tate-LaBianca.

THE COURT: You are leading up to the Tate-LaBianca murders?

MR. KEITH: Yes.

THE COURT: That is the way I understood it.

MR. BUGLIOSI: It was such a broad question that I was afraid, because there had been other discussions of it.

I don’t want anything to be prejudicial to the defendants during the penalty trial other than the actual evidence against them.

MR. KEITH: Oh, no, God! Things are bad enough.

MR. BUGLIOSI: The defense already put on the Hinman murder, when the prosecution could not put it on.

They already put on the Hinman murder. I’m sorry if you are just going to the Tate-LaBianca now.

MR. KEITH: Yes.

MR. BUGLIOSI: It was such a broad question, I feared a discussion of other murders, I’m sorry, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right.

(The following proceedings were had in open court in the presence and hearing of the jury.)

MR. KEITH: I will withdraw the previous question.

Q. Leslie, were you interested in trying to, in some manner, protect or save Bobby Beausoleil after he was arrested for the Hinman murder?

A. Yeah, very much so interested.

I don’t know if protect and favor are the right words, but I was interested, you know, in his welfare.

Q. To that end, whether we use protect, save or to aid—

A. Those words are okay.

Q. —did you have a conversation or conversations with Patricia and Sadie and Linda or anybody else, for that matter?

A. Well, Patricia and myself and Sadie had discussed different ways—different people running the ranch. We were talking about different things like bail and we found out he didn’t have bail.

Then a good attorney.

Then we talked about copy-cat cases.

We went around and felt out different People’s feelings, you know, like one time Linda and I did go up to Gypsy and mentioned to her and she, you know, she just ran away.

She didn’t explain or even express what her feelings were, you know, she just left, and we didn’t see her for a long time.

Q. Do you know where Gypsy went?

A. To the woods, she said, I don’t know. I did not know where she went. She just took off.

I could not understand why she left, because I was willing to do anything to get Bobby out.

Q. And you talked about that with some of the other girls at the ranch?

A. Yes, we talked about it. We took an acid trip.

I don’t remember exactly who everybody was, I know Patricia was there. Most likely Sadie and Linda were, maybe a couple of others, and we discussed it in many different ways, to get him out, different things.

Q. Did you ever reach any conclusion as to what you could do to best serve Bobby Beausoleil’s interests?

A. No, not a conclusion, we just kept all the thoughts in our minds.

Q. And one of the thoughts was, as you put it, a copy-cat killing?

A. Yeah, they do that on TV and stuff.

Q. But nothing ever jelled in any of your minds about that kind of an operation I take it?

A. Well, just say it this way, the thought was in our mind, though, you know—

But we did not ponder upon it or plan anything.

We never planned anything.

Q. Did you ever talk to Charlie Manson about what to do for Bobby Beausoleil?

A. I don’t think I ever confronted Charlie with it. Somebody else might have, but I don’t believe I did.

Q. To change the subject briefly, was there a place near the Spahn Ranch known as the Fountain of the World?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you ever go there?

A. Yes, I did.

Q. What was that?

A. It was a church.

Q. Did you spend any amount of time there?

A. Yes. Right before we went to the desert, Patricia and I stayed there.

Q. What went on, so to speak, at the Fountain of the World? Is it a religious group?

A. Yes.

There was some people living there, and Patricia and I went there and we helped them, you know, keep the place going.

Q. What do you mean by helping keep the place going? What did you do?

A. I don’t recall everything right now.

Q. Well, not everything, but generally.

A. We helped them put on their religious shows on Friday and Saturday nights.

And we did some work with people. You know, talking to them. We talked to them about the place. Things like that.

Q. Did the people at the Fountain of the World sort of live as hermits, or something like that?

A. No. They had a lot to do with everything.

Q. Was it a large group or a small group?

A. From what I understand, it used to be, but now it was just all, you know, the people who wanted to get the land. They were all scheming on each other to get the property rights, is what they were doing.

Q. Who? The people at the Fountain of the World?

A. Yes. The ones that were left. Uh-huh.

Q. And you and Patricia did what you could to assist this religious order?

A. Yes.

THE COURT: I think that maybe it is your microphone, Mr. Keith, that is causing the problem.

When it is pointed at the speakers, we get some feedback.

MR. KEITH: I see.

I claim no expertise in electronics.

Thank you, your Honor.

Q. All right, Leslie. Did there come a time when you and Katie got in an old model Ford automobile being driven by Linda Kasabian?

A. Lots of times. Linda drove everywhere.

Q. All right. But I am trying to pinpoint it to some time in August of 1969.

A. You mean the night of the murders?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes.

MR. KEITH: Don’t be so blunt.

Q. Now, you have heard a vast [illegible], of course, concerning five killings that took place on or about August 8, 1969, at the residence owned by Mr. Polanski.

Did you have anything to do with any of those homicides?

A. No.

Q. Did you have any idea they were going to take place?

A. No.

Q. Did you participate in any way in planning or carrying out—assuming there was a plan—

A. No.

Q. —those homicides?

A. No.

Q. Now, on the next night—this would be August 9th—did you—you along with Katie Krenwinkel—get in an automobile and go some place?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, before you got in that Automobile—incidentally, was it a 1959 Ford, or an old model Ford?

A. It is the yellow one that was in the pictures in the case.

Q. All right.

Before you got in that automobile with Katie, just before, did you know anything about the homicides that had been committed the night before?

A. I watched them on TV that afternoon.

Q. Did you know the identities of any of the perpetrators when you watched the news on TV?

A. I don’t know what a perpetrator is.

Q. The people that did the killing?

A. No.

Q. Now, before getting in that automobile, did you hear Charles Manson or Tex Watson discuss the doing of other killings?

A. I didn’t hear anybody discuss the doing of other killings.

Q. When you got in the automobile with Patricia Krenwinkel, did you have any knowledge or idea or suspicion that there had been additional murders planned that evening?

A. No.

Q. Did you get in the automobile with a change of clothing?

A. No.

Q. Did anybody tell you to take a change of clothing?

A. No.

Q. Had you taken acid sometime before you got in the vehicle?

A. Yes. After Bobby was arrested, I was taking quite a bit of acid.

Q. Do you remember whether or not you had taken acid that particular day?

Don’t guess. If you don’t remember, say so.

A. I have looked back upon it a lot, and I believe that I did. It was either in the bunkhouse or the kitchen. I asked Patricia to go to the stash and get some acid.

Q. So, your best recollection is that you probably did take acid before you got in this automobile?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you bring any weapon with you of any kind when you got into the car?

A. No.

Q. Incidentally, who was in the car when you got in it and it started off down the road?

A. Linda, Tex, Clem, Sadie, Patricia and me.

Q. Was Mr. Manson there?

A. No. He was with Stephanie.

Q. How do you know he was with Stephanie Schram?

A. Because he spent all his time with Stephanie when Stephanie was around.

Q. Was Stephanie something of a newcomer to the Family or the group, or whatever you want to call it?

A. Yes. A very pretty young girl.

Q. Had she been a long time, or was she a recent arrival?

A. No, she was new.

When she came, she had a big crush on Charlie and demanded all his attention.

Q. Did Stephanie’s crush on Charlie create any competition or jealousy among the other girls, to your knowledge?

A. Not with me.

If it did with somebody else, I don’t know.

Q. Now, getting back to the automobile ride.

Did you see any of the other people in the group with weapons?

A. (Pause.)

Q. Do you know what I am talking about?

A. Yes, I know what you are talking about. I am trying to think.

I don’t recall seeing any. But then again, a lot of us wore knives, you know, and there could have been somebody in the car with a knife on.

Q. When you say that a lot of people wore knives what was the purpose in your wearing knives from time to time?

A. Different things.

I know a lot of times I wore a knife for protection because when I had been in Haight-Asbury, I had been attacked many times.

I did it because of fear.

And also, when I’d go on the runs with vegetables, I’d use it to clean off the food.

Q. To the best of your recollection, however, on this occasion, you did not have a knife?

A. No.

Q. Now did any of the people in the automobile tell you where they were going or why or what they were doing?

A. We never explained ourselves to each other at the ranch.

Q. To you, this was just another automobile trip that you took on occasion?

A. Sure.

Q. Was this a fairly frequent occurrence at the ranch, you would all pile in the car and go some place?

A. Now and then.

You know, if a group of people felt like driving, just going down into “the monster,” and drive for awhile and look at all the different lights and see what people were doing and what a fast pace they were coming at, until it started twirling our minds in circles, and then we would go back to the ranch.

Just for a cruise. Maybe we would go down and get an ice cream cone. Different little things.

Q. Did it give you some sort of sense of satisfaction to drive through “the monster” and see how all the other people were living and comparing their—

A. Satisfaction? What do you mean, “satisfaction”?

Q. All right.

Sort of feeling of not superiority, perhaps, but a feeling of relief to realize that you didn’t have to live the way all these other people were living in the monster.

A. No. Because as long as it existed, it would be part of me.

Q. Do you have any recollection as to how long you drove around on this particular evening?

A. No.

Q. Did Linda do all the driving?

A. She was the only one with the driver’s license.

Q. Did you know how to drive at that time?

A. Sure.

Q. Was it somewhat of a rule that the only people that drove were ones with driver’s licenses?

A. It wasn’t a rule. It was just, you know—

Q. A policy, maybe?

A. No. But it is just a simple fact that if you drive without a driver’s license, you will get stopped and go to jail. And if somebody in the car has got a driver’s license, then they should drive.

Q. Did anybody else drive that evening besides Linda?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Do you remember where you went?

A. No.

We went all over the place.

Q. Were there any discussions or conversations that you can remember during your trip all over the place?

A. No.

Q. As far as you were concerned, it was just sort of a jaunt through the big city for no particular purpose?

A. Just a drive.

Q. Did anybody give anybody else directions? In other words, did Tex or Clem?

A. Not that I remember.

Mr. Keith, that was over a year ago and I am not going to play like I remember something that I don’t remember.

Q. I don’t want you to do that.

A. I don’t remember any conversations at all.

Q. Just to the best of your recollection.

Did you stop at any places along the way that you can remember?

A. All I remember is that we drove and we drove and we drove, and we stopped at a house.

Q. And was that the only stop you made that you can remember?

A. You know, we might have stopped at a gas station, we might have stopped at a place to get a pack of cigarettes. I don’t remember.

Q. Could you describe generally the place where you finally did stop?

A. No.

Q. Was it a residential neighborhood or commercial?

A. Yes, it was a residential neighborhood. One I hadn’t seen, I wasn’t familiar with it.

Q. Did you ask some questions of Linda as to why you stopped at this particular area?

A. No. I never asked anybody why.

Q. Did anybody ask Linda any questions about why she stopped?

A. No.

Q. Did anybody tell Linda to stop at this particular area?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. What happened when you stopped?

A. Linda and Tex got out of the car.

Q. Do you remember whether or not either one of them or both told the rest of you in the car why they were getting out?

A. No.

Q. They did not say anything, to the best of your recollection?

A. They might have. Like I say, I don’t remember.

Q. What did you say Linda and Tex did, if anything, after they got out of the car?

A. They walked away from the car.

Q. Did they go towards the house or down the sidewalk or what?

A. I’m not even sure which direction they went in.

Q. At some time later did one or both of them reappear at the car?

A. Linda came back and she said that Tex was going to stay.

So Patricia and I said “Well, we want to stay too.”

So we went up to the house.

She said “Go up that driveway.”

Q. Did Linda tell you what was going on in the house?

A. No.

Q. Did she tell you anything at all about who was in the house or what they were doing?

A. No.

Q. Did you ask?

A. No. I can tell you what I figured, but I didn’t ask.

Q. Well, at that time were you—at that time you—strike that.

You did walk up in the driveway with Katie and go in the house?

A. Yes.

Q. While you walked up the driveway towards the house did you have murder in your mind?

A. No.

Q. Or harming anybody?

A. No.

Q. Or robbing anybody?

A. No.

Q. Or burglarizing the house?

A. No.

Q. When you entered the house did you just walk right in, you and Katie?

A. Yeah, the door was ajar, so we walked in.

Q. Did it appear to be the front door?

A. It most definitely was the front door.

Q. When you got inside the house what did you see?

A. Tex standing, a woman sitting and a man sitting.

Q. Did you notice anything unusual about the man?

A. His hands were behind him like this.

Q. Did you notice whether they were tied or not?

A. I don’t remember if I saw the strings or not, but it was apparent that they were.

Q. Was anybody saying anything?

A. No, we all just looked at each other for a few minutes, a few seconds.

Q. Did Tex say—

A. Huh?

Q. Excuse me for interrupting you.

A. That’s okay.

Q. No, it is not okay, I’m sorry.

Did Tex say anything when you waited in the house?

A. No.

Q. Did either of the two people on the couch—couches say anything?

A. The woman looked at us and she said “We will give you anything.”

Q. Had you said anything, either you or Katie?

A. No.

Q. Just out of the clear blue sky the woman said “I’ll give you anything.”

A. Yes.

Q. Did you hear Tex threaten the woman or the man?

A. No.

Q. Did you or Katie threaten the woman or the man?

A. No.

Q. So the first thing that you can remember that was said was “I’ll give you anything.”

A. Yes.

Q. Then what happened?

A. So Patricia and myself and the Lady went into the bedroom, and the closet door was open, so we were looking at the clothes.

And then she said, “I won’t call the police; I won’t call the police.”

She kept saying that.

Q. Now, wait a minute, let’s go slowly.

Did the woman show you her clothes?

A. Well, the closet was open—and all of the clothes were there.

Q. Did she have a lot of clothes?

A. Yes, she had some very pretty clothes.

Q. Did you think that the woman was going to give you some of the clothes?

A. Yes.

Q. Why did you think that?

A. Because she said I’ll give you anything.

Q. All right. Did the woman appear to you at that time when she said “I’ll give you anything,” to be panicky or afraid?

A. Well, if she felt at all what I felt, sure she did, because I wasn’t even sure what was happening.

Q. Were you afraid?

A. I don’t know if afraid is the right word, I was—

Q. —uneasy?

A. Yeah, there was, you know that feeling that you get.

Q. Well, I think I know the feeling that you get but I cannot put it into words at the present time.

At any rate I take it everything did not seem quite right to you?

A. No.

Q. Something seemed wrong?

A. Yes.

Q. So that you and Katie were looking at her clothes?

A. Yes, and she was standing behind us.

Q. And then did—

While you were looking at her clothes did something happen with respect to a table lamp?

A. Yes, she picked up a great big table lamp and she picked it up and it looked like she was going to throw it.

And I looked through the corner of my eye and I saw the lamp coming down, so I blocked it.

Q. What happened to the lamp?

A. I got it away from her, and we fought for a few seconds and I got her on the bed and ripped the pillowcase off the pillow and I put it on her head and I don’t know if I used the lamp cord to tie around her neck or her hands, or if I even used it.

Q. Now, while you were struggling with the woman, did Katie go some place and then come back to your knowledge?

A. Yeah, Katie came back in the bedroom and she had a whole bunch of kitchen utensils.

Q. Were there any knives amongst the kitchen utensils?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you manage to quiet the woman down?

A. I kept saying, “Please be still,” and then she—

Q. At that time had you threatened to hurt her or harm her in any way?

(No response.)

Obviously you had been fighting with her but did you—

A. We were struggling.

Q. Did you have any words with her while you were struggling?

A. I don’t recall words.

Q. Or did Katie have any words?

A. I don’t recall Katie speaking to her.

Q. At some time while you were struggling did the woman start yelling for somebody?

A. For somebody?

Q. Yeah.

A. She just kept saying, “I won’t call the police.”

And it seemed the more she said police, the more panicked I got.

Q. That is what I meant to get at.

While you were struggling with her she said, “I won’t call the police.”

A. Yes.

Q. Did she say that in a loud, screaming tone or how would you describe it?

A. I don’t know how loud it was.

You know, it could have been loud enough for everyone to hear, and then again it might not have been, I don’t know how loud it was.

Q. Incidentally, had you heard anything unusual going on in the living room, or some other part of the house while you and Katie were with Mrs. LaBianca?

A. It’s hard for me to say anything like that because at the time I was, you know, wrestling with the woman.

I don’t know what was going on anywhere, but what I was doing, and as far as sounds or things being said, all I remember is that the police—police.

I don’t remember, you know, like if somebody said something else, I don’t remember.

Q. I see. Now, when you heard Mrs. LaBianca talk about not calling the police, did that give you some reaction, or do something to your mind, or make you afraid?

A. Yes.

Q. And what did it do?

A. It is difficult to describe, but what I have seen the police do they instill a very big paranoia fear inside of me.

And the more she would name it, the more I would be frightened that she would and they would come.

Q. And what did you do, if anything, by reason of this paranoia fear, as you put it?

A. I asked her to lay still.

Then she picked up the lampshade again, and I took one of the knives and Patricia had a knife, and we started stabbing and cutting up the lady.

Q. Up to that time did you have any intention of hurting anybody?

A. No.

Q. Mrs. LaBianca in particular?

A. No.

Q. Did you stab Mrs. LaBianca as well as Patricia, or did Patricia do the stabbing while you just held her?

A. I stabbed her. I don’t know if it was before or after she was dead, but I stabbed her.

Q. Did you stab her some times after she appeared to be dead, Les?

A. I don’t know if she was dead. She was laying there on the floor.

Q. Had you stabbed her at all before you saw her laying on the floor?

A. I don’t remember.

Q. Is it all kind of a nightmare to you now?

A. Not a nightmare. It just isn’t clear. It all happened so, you know, I cannot describe it.

Q. After it was all over did you and Katie go in the next room or back into the living rooms I should say?

A. Mr. Keith, all I know is what I have done.

I don’t remember what room I walked in next.

Q. Well, tell us what happened next then.

A. Then I got a towel and I started wiping everything off.

I got just obsessed with the thought of the fingerprints because, you know, in the movies and things, when things happen you always get a towel and wipe off fingerprints.

And Patricia came in and I was inside drawers wiping off things that never had even been touched.

I was wiping off, that was all I was going to—that was all I was doing, going through everything, fingerprinting, you know, wiping everything off.

And she came and she took the towel, and I’m not sure what I did, I just have a flash of me—

You know, I just have a picture of me, I was standing in the hallway and I went into the living room afterwards and I saw a man laying there, and I saw writings on the wall.

And then we left.

Q. Now, let’s back up a minute.

Did you see Mr. LaBianca lying in the living room?

A. Yes.

Q. Was Tex in the living room when you saw Mr. LaBianca?

A. I don’t know where Tex was.

I know he left the house with us, but from the moment we got in the bedroom until we left the house, I don’t even know where Tex was.

Q. Did it surprise you to see Mr. LaBianca apparently dead, too, in the living room, having been stabbed to death?

A. No.

Q. Why didn’t it surprise you? Did you have any preknowledge or foreknowledge that he was going to get killed?

A. No, but when you have lived with a group of people, and your thought becomes so complete—

When one thing would go on in the bedroom or in the house, it would just happen automatically in the next one.

It didn’t surprise me at all. It was like we were all running on the same thought.

And even if this thought were to go back to the original thought about Bobby, it could have been.

I never thought about it, to weave the pieces together.

Q. Were you thinking about trying to save or aid in some manner Bobby Beausoleil when you were stabbing Mrs. LaBianca when she was on the floor?

A. I wasn’t thinking anything while I was stabbing Mrs. LaBianca.

Q. Now, before you left the house, Les, did you have anything to eat?

A. No.

Q. Did any of the others to your recollection or knowledge?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. You didn’t have a change of clothing, did you?

A. No, we did not take a change of clothing.

Q. So I take it nobody changed their clothing after this happened?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Did you catch a ride somewhere?

A. Yes, we hitchhiked back to Spahn’s.

Q. The three of you together?

A. Yes.

Q. Did you talk to Tex at all, or did he talk to you about what he was supposed to be doing in that house? Why he did what he did?

A. None of us talked about it much.

Tex kind of was somewhere else, you might say.

Q. Do you believe, having ingested all the LSD and other drugs that you have taken, that Tex was under the influence of some narcotic or hallucinogen?

A. I would say he was.

Q. Do you know what particular drug he took?

A. No, but I had heard Sadie mention something about STP.

Q. What is STP?

A. I don’t think I ever had any, but I heard it’s one of the farthest out psychedelics you can take.

It lasts for days and days and days.

Q. You mean Tex seemed sort of out of it when you were going back to the ranch?

A. Well, at the ranch we were all pretty much in our own worlds, but Tex really got into his own world.

Q. You mean this was afterwards, or was he always in his own world?

A. Well, you know, he was always pretty jolly.

But after this we started calling him the Mad Hatter. He would just zoom in the kitchen and we’d fix him some coffee and he zoomed out of the kitchen.

Q. Did you catch more than one ride back to the ranch?

A. I don’t recall how many, but it was more than one.

Q. Do you know whether or not you had any blood on your clothing?

A. I don’t believe so.

Q. How did you arrive at that belief that you had no blood on your clothing?

A. Nobody said anything, and I didn’t see any.

Q. Now, sometime after you returned to the Spahn Ranch, did you go again, to the desert?

A. Yeah, but not until after I went to the Fountain.

Q. When did you go to the Fountain of the World in relation to the time you were in the LaBianca home?

A. I don’t know.

Q. But you were there before you went back to the desert?

A. Yeah, after the big Spahn Ranch raid some people went to the desert and some of us went to, you know—

Patricia and I went to the Fountain.

Different people went different places.

Q. Was that after the raid?

A. Yeah, they pretty much ripped the place apart.

Q. Did you stay at the Fountain of the World a long time?

A. Not too long.

Q. You went alone with Patricia?

A. Yeah.

Q. And what did you do at the Fountain of the World during this period?

A. What I just explained to you before.

Q. And where did you go after you left the Fountain of the World?

A. I went to the desert.

Q. Was Charlie at the desert when you got there, if you remember?

A. I really cannot recall.

Q. Did you ever see Charlie again?

A. Sure.

Q. Where did you see him?

A. In the desert, but I don’t know if he was there at the time I got there.

Q. Did you ever tell Charlie about what had happened at the LaBianca house?

A. Yeah.

Q. What did he have to say if anything?

A. Well, he kind of looked at me and I kind of looked at him, and what could he do about it?

I don’t know what—I had done it.

Q. Did he talk to you about how wrong it was for you to have done this, or anything like that?

A. I never told him anything he did was wrong. Why should he tell me anything I did was wrong?

Q. So he did not take you to task then for what you had done?

A. Take me what?

Q. To task.

A. I don’t know what that is.

Q. All right. Did he get angry with you when he told you what you had done?

A. Because I had done something?

Q. Yes.

A. No.

Q. Did he tell you you had done the right thing?

A. He did not tell me his opinion one way or the other.

Our conversation amounted to what I told him what I had done.

Q. That is what I’m trying to get out.

A. I don’t know the exact words, but it amounted to I was there, and whatever was to come to pass was whatever was to come to pass and this is where I am at.

There was no right or wrong in the discussion.

Q. Sometime in October you were arrested in the desert?

A. Yes.

Q. You used the name of Lulu?

A. Oh, wait, Louella Alexandria.

Q. When you gave the name Louella Alexandria, were you trying to hide your true identity for some reason?

A. No, I always gave different names. Then I would not be bothered with them bringing up all my old, you know, “Why did you leave home?”

“Why did you do this?”

“Why did you do that?”

All those reasons for existing, I always gave a different name.

Q. Was it also part of the magical mystery tour to change identities, and to change names?

A. You can call it that if you want to.

Q. I don’t want to call it anything. I want you to call it the way you see it.

A. I personally gave a different name every time to avoid them bringing up all my past and putting it in front of me.

Q. Leslie, at some time after you were arrested, you were ultimately charged with the LaBianca homicides; isn’t that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did you have any conversations with members of the Los Angeles Police Department, either before or after you were formally charged with the LaBianca homicides?

A. You mean before I was charged with them?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes, I did.

Q. Do you remember who some of the people were, the names of some of the people were?

A. Detective McGann and Detective Patchett.

Q. Were they from the LAPD or the Sheriff’s Department, if you know?

A. It was my understanding that they were LAPD Homicide.

Q. Did you talk with Sergeant Gutierrez here?

A. No. He was questioning somebody else.

Q. Did you talk to any other homicide detectives?

A. Well, like these detectives question you and there are about three or four of them. One fires questions at you and the others stand around like, you know, “We can read your mind,” you know.

So, there were others around, but the main ones were Detective McGann in L.A. and Sergeant Patchett when I was in Inyo County.

Q. Sergeant who? I’m sorry.

A. Patchett.

Q. In the conversation that you had with Sergeant Patchett, did you have one or more than one conversation with him?

A. I had one, and I refused to speak to him after that.

Q. Who was present besides yourself and Sergeant Patchett?

A. Sartuche [Sartuchi]—you know, I learned his name later—and one other one, but I don’t know who he was.

Was this in Inyo County Jail?

A. Yes, it was.

Q. And was it sometime before you were actually indicted on the charges?

A. It was about a week before they brought me here to L.A., and then it wasn’t long after that that I got indicted, I guess. It must have been about a couple of weeks.

Q. Did you talk with Sergeant Patchett and tell him what you have told us here today?

A. No, I didn’t.

Q. Did Sergeant Patchett offer you anything to try to induce you to talk?

A. He offered me immunity, and when I turned him down, he said he would have me murdered.

And then that is where Dianne Bluestein came running in our cell—

Q. Now, wait. We are getting ahead of ourselves.

You are sure Sergeant Patchett offered you immunity if you would testify for the State?

A. They all offered me immunity, and they offered me $25,000, and a 9:00 to 5:00, and 24-hour security.

They offered me a complete world if I would turn in evidence for them.

Q. Now, you see, we are getting ahead of ourselves. We have to determine who “they” are.

Who besides Sergeant Patchett?

A. McGann. Mr. McCann used to see me in the Captain’s office for three hours every day, for three or four days, and do nothing but offer me an entire world if I would look at a picture and say that I saw Charlie Manson shoot that gun, and wasn’t he a terrible man.

It was so obvious what they wanted.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Motion to strike, your Honor, the last comment.

THE COURT: The last comment will be stricken.

The jury is admonished to disregard it.

MR. KEITH: Where were these conversations with Mr. McGann?

A. In the Captain’s office at the jail.

Q. What jail?

A. Sybil Brand Institute For Women.

Q. Was anybody else present besides you and Mr. McGann?

A. I think—I am not sure—but one of them came in.

It might have been you—that one there—but I don’t remember.

Once in a while one or two would come in and ask McGann how he was doing with me, you know, and McGann would just look at me and say something.

Q. And who offered you $25,000, a $25,000 reward?

A. Detective McGann.

Q. And who offered you what sounds to me like some kind of a job?

A. He did. He offered me everything.

Q. When you say everything, what do you mean by that?

A. In other words, he offered me a complete world outside of the bars if I would turn in evidence against other people.

Q. Did you steadfastly refuse?

A. Yes, I refused.

Q. Perhaps you could tell us why?

A. Because if I was at that house—which I knew I was—I knew that it was up to me to be judged accordingly, and not for me to be cut loose because I was to turn in evidence against other people.

I don’t see where justice lies in that. I don’t see how it is fair.

Q. Leslie, do you feel sorrow or shame or a sense of guilt at having participated in the death of Mrs. LaBianca?

A. (Pause.)

Q. Let me go one by one.

Do you feel sorrowful about it; sorry, unhappy?

A. Sorry is only a five-letter word. It can’t bring back anything.

Q. I am trying, Leslie, to discover, as best I can, your feelings about what you did, your feelings now, how you feel about it, and I can only use words.

A. What can I feel? It has happened. She is gone.

What can I do? What can I feel?

Q. Do you wish that it hadn’t happened?

A. Do I wish?

I never wish anything to be done over another way.

That is a foolish thought. It never will happen that way. You can’t undo something that is done.

Q. Do you feel ashamed at what happened within yourself?

A. Ashamed?

Q. Yes. Ashamed.

A. Ashamed?

Q. Yes.

A. What is ashamed?

Q. Do you have a feeling—the best way I can put it other than to use that word itself—do you have a feeling of—

A. You mean as if I wanted to hide?

Q. No, not to hide, but as if you wanted to cry for what happened?

A. Cry?

Q. Yes.

A. For her death?

Q. Yes.

A. If I cry for death, it is for death itself.

She is not the only person who has died.

Q. Could you tell us, how do you feel about it now sitting in the witness box?

A. How I feel?

I feel like it happened.

Q. And it is something that we all, none of us, can undo; is that right?

A. Sure

Q. Do you think about it from time to time?

A. Only when I am in the courtroom.

Q. Have you tried to stop thinking about it except when you were in the courtroom?

MR. BUGLIOSI: Assumes a fact not in evidence.

THE COURT: Overruled.

You may answer.

THE WITNESS: What do you mean, do I try to stop?

I don’t generally think about things that are already past.

MR. KEITH: Q. So, except when you have been in the courtroom here and testifying, and have testified, you haven’t thought about it, you tried not to think about it?

A. I haven’t tried not to do anything.

The thought hasn’t come into my mind.

Q. Les, do you still feel—do you think you still feel the effects of all the LSD you have taken over the years?

A. It has changed my way of thinking.

Q. How has it changed your way of thinking? Would you tell us that?

You say it has changed your way of thinking?

A. I just don’t think any more, that is how it has changed it.

When I leave here, I go in a car and I go to a jail, and I sit in a jail and I look at what goes on in the jail. And I come back here and I am in the courtroom.

I don’t think about it.

Q. So, you are telling us that one of the changes is, from all the LSD, that you just don’t think about things any more, you try not to think about things?

A. I don’t have to try not to, I just don’t.

Q. Is your mind sort of a blank now?

A. No, by no means. It is not a blank. I am aware of what goes on around me.

Q. I am not sure that I gather what you mean when you say you don’t think any more.

A. In other words, I watch rather than think. When I am in jail, I am busy watching the prisoners, what they are doing, I am busy watching the police and what they are doing.

I don’t have time to think about what I am doing.

Q. And has it been that way for a long time, Les?

A. Sure.

MR. KEITH: I don’t have anything further at this point.

THE COURT: All right.

Cross-examine.

MR. FITZGERALD: No questions.

MR. KANAREK: I have some questions.

MR. SHINN: I have some questions.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. SHINN:

Q. Leslie, you stated that Sadie, Bobby Beausoleil, and you went to the Hinman residence?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. I believe you stated that Gary Hinman took a shot at somebody?

A. What?

Q. You said that Gary Hinman took a shot at somebody with a gun.

A. Yes.

Q. And you said right after that shot that Sadie hit Gary Hinman over the head with a gun.

A. No, that is not what I said.

Q. What did you say?

A. I said, that Charlie took his sword and cut Gary’s ear.

Q. After that?

A. Then I told Charlie that I would take care of Gary as best I could, and for him to go.

Q. Okay.

So, now, I believe you stated that Sadie then hit Gary over the head with a gun; is that correct?

A. I said I didn’t see it but she must have because he was knocked out in the living room.

Q. You say when Charlie and Bruce left, Gary went from the living room—I mean, from the kitchen to the living room?

A. He went into the hallway with the gun still pointing.

Q. Where was Sadie at that time?

A. In the kitchen with me. Then she left the kitchen and went running towards Gary.

Q. That is in the hallway?

A. Well, the way the house is situated is there is still a hallway. When you leave the kitchen through the kitchen door, you go down a hallway which leads to the front door and then goes on up into the living room.

Q. In other words, Gary ran first then Sadie ran after him?

A. Ran?

Q. Did she walk after him?

A. Fast movement.

Q. And—where were you at that time?

A. I was in the kitchen.

Q. And you didn’t run after Sadie either then?

A. Not right away, no.

Q. Were you doing something in the kitchen at that time?

A. I was watching. I was stunned.

Q. Did Sadie have anything in her hand when she ran after Gary?

A. I didn’t notice anything.

Q. When did you first see Sadie hit Gary Hinman?

A. I never saw Sadie hit Gary Hinman.

I said I figured she did.

Q. How did you figure that she hit Gary Hinman?

A. How else would a man end up knocked out on the living room floor?

Q. Okay.

Now, after Sadie left the kitchen and went into the living room after Gary—

A. After what?

Q. After Gary.

Gary left first; correct?

A. Left where?

Q. The kitchen.

A. Yes.

Q. And then Sadie was right behind him; correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, then, you stayed in the kitchen?

A. Yes.

Q. Okay.

Now, how much time elapsed before you went into the living room?

A. Mr. Shinn, I don’t know how much time elapsed.

Q. Was it a long time or a short time?

A. Short. Within enough time to become conscious of what is going on again and react.

Q. Okay.

So, now, did you hear something hit something in the living room?

A. I don’t remember precisely sounds.

Q. Did you hear a sound?

A. I could have. There must have been a lot of sounds going on at that time.

I don’t remember a thud or anything.

Q. When you walked into the living room, you had imagined that Sadie hit Gary with something?

A. That is what I figured.

Q. And where was Gary when you first entered the living room?

A. He was laying on the floor.

Q. Where was Sadie?

A. Near him.

Q. Was Gary bleeding at that time?

A. His ear was.

Q. What about his head where he was hit on top of the head?

A. It could have been.

Q. Was he unconscious or conscious?

A. I didn’t look at him that close. I just went and looked and I saw him, and I left the room.

Q. And what did—

A. I didn’t want to go near him.

Q. Okay.

So where was Sadie then? Was Sadie standing over him?

A. I don’t know what Sadie was doing, Mr. Shinn.

Q. Did you ask Gary whether or not he wanted you to help him?

A. I didn’t ask him anything.

Q. You just walked out?

A. Sadie took care of Gary.

Q. When you say that Sadie took care of Gary, did you see Sadie take care of Gary?

A. Sadie would come into the kitchen and tell me to cook broth and things like that. And I wouldn’t go in there.

At the time that I wasn’t in the kitchen, I would stay in the patio room.

Q. Did Sadie have any weapons with her or on her?

A. Yes. She had her knife.

Q. What kind of a knife?

A. A Buck knife.

Q. Oh, the one she carries all the time?

A. She doesn’t carry a knife all the time.

Q. Did you see where she got this Buck knife?

A. Huh?

Q. Did you see where she got this Buck knife?

A. No, I didn’t see where she got it. She wore it.

Q. And you also said that—Well, before I ask you that question, let me ask you. How big is Gary Hinman? Is he a pretty big guy, six foot tall?

A. He is a man.

Q. How big? Six foot?

A. I met him once. I don’t know his size.

Q. Did he weigh about 200 pounds?

A. I wouldn’t have considered that. He was kind of big.

Q. Husky?

A. Sure. He had extra on him. Put it that way.

Q. And did you ever go back into the living room to see Gary after that?

A. I went in once, when I heard a lot of noise going on in there, strange sounds.

I went in and I saw him dead or dying. I don’t know if he was dead or not.

Q. Did you actually see Sadie stab Gary Hinman?

A. No, I did not.

Q. So you don’t know whether or not Sadie did in fact stab Gary Hinman, is that correct?

A. She was the only one in the house other than myself.

Q. Is there a back door to the house?

A. I didn’t see one.

Q. No back door to the house?

A. There could have been. I did not see one.

Q. But as far as you know, the only reason you think Sadie stabbed Gary Hinman was because no one else was in the house, is that correct?

A. And I saw her, oh, you know, leaned over him.

THE COURT: We will take our recess at this time.

Ladies and gentlemen, do not converse with anyone or form or express any opinion regarding penalty until that issue is finally submitted to you.

The Court will recess for 15 minutes.

(Recess.)

THE COURT: All parties, counsel and jurors are present.

You may continue, Mr. Shinn.

Q. BY MR. SHINN: Leslie, how long have you known Sadie?

A. Umm—

Q. Just approximately.

A. Either two or three years, I have lost a year.

Q. Okay, now, from this time that you knew Sadie did she take drugs?

A. Sure, we all took acid.

Q. Did she take anything else besides acid?

A. She might have.

At the ranch, acid was the—you know—if you were to talk about a drug, it was mostly marijuana, hash and acid.

Or psychedelics such as mescaline and psilocybin, and that type.

We didn’t always, you know—once in a while methydrine might come up to us, but most of us would not have some.

She might have had some methydrine, I don’t know.

Q. But you have seen her take drugs, correct?

A. I have taken several acid trips with Sadie, quite a few.

Q. Quite often?

A. Yeah, a lot.

I have taken a lot of acid trips with Sadie.

Q. Do you recall whether or not before going to Gary Hinman’s house—

Were you taking drugs that day? Were you taking drugs, say, even the day before the same day you went to Gary Hinman’s house?

A. It’s possible. We generally always smoked some grass.

Q. Well, do you recall whether or not you took some drugs, say, a couple of days before going to Gary Hinman’s house?

A. What do you mean drugs, you mean acid?

Q. Acid, speed, anything.

A. It’s possible.

Like I don’t know—every time Sadie would take a tab of acid she would not come tell me.

And I might have. I didn’t ever keep track. I didn’t run on a schedule of, you know, like once a week I needed an acid trip.

You know, acid is not that way.

Q. Okay, so now you were—how long did you stay in Gary Hinman’s house?

A. We were there for a couple of days altogether.

Q. Now, during your stay there, did you or did Sadie take any drugs?

A. When we first got there we had smoked some grass, but then, after it got a little thick in the house, I didn’t.

Chances are she did while I was sleeping or something.

Q. How about speed or LSD?

A. No, I didn’t.

I cannot speak for her. I don’t know if she did or not.

Q. Now, how long have you known Linda Kasabian?

A. How long have I know her?

Q. Approximately.

A. Well, I met her at the ranch around the time period when Bobby got arrested until she left after the murders.

Q. Okay now, did you ever see her take any drugs like LSD or speed or marijuana?

A. I have been with her a couple of times. We have had acid.

She has been on a couple of acid trips with me.

Q. And would she take these drugs quite often?

A. Like I say, you know, like at the ranch I was doing whatever I was doing.

Sometimes I would come across Linda; she could have been loaded, I don’t know, or high on acid.

I don’t know how many times she did. I know she had an acid stash when she came with us, that people were, you know, taking tabs from now and then.

Q. Okay. So now, on August 8th and August 9th, did you have a conversation with Linda Kasabian?

A. What do you mean?

Q. That is August the 8th and August the 9th, did you have a conversation?

A. I’m sure I had some sort of conversation.

Q. Okay, did you talk about Bobby Beausoleil?

A. On those two days?

Q. Well, preceding those two days, before August 8th and August 9th.

A. Everyone was discussing Bobby Beausoleil.

Q. Yes, but I want to direct your attention to whether or not Linda Kasabian was talking to you or in your presence about Bobby Beausoleil.

A. We talked about it.

Q. Did she talk about it?

A. Did she?

Q. Yes.

A. We, it wasn’t like she did not do any more than I did.

Q. You say “we.”

Did she participate in the conversation?

A. Sure.

Q. Do you recall what she said about Bobby Beausoleil?

A. No.

Q. Did she say anything about trying to get him out?

A. We all said things about trying to get him out.

Q. When you said you all, you are including Linda Kasabian?

A. Sure.

Q. I mean, do you remember what she said, how to get Bobby Beausoleil out?

Do you recall?

MR. BUGLIOSI: Assumes a fact not in evidence.

THE COURT: Sustained.

Q. BY MR. SHINN: Did she talk about Bobby Beausoleil in jail, Linda Kasabian?

A. While Bobby was in jail did she talk about him?

Q. Yes.

A. Sure.

Q. How to get out brother out?

A. Yes, “It’s a shame he’s in jail. I wonder how we could get him out.”

Well, you know—conversation. I cannot pinpoint the words.

Q. Okay, so now August 9th you stated she drove the automobile.

A. What date?

Q. August 9th.

A. Is that the second night?

Q. That is the night of the LaBianca—

A. Yes, she drove.

Q. Now, before she got into the automobile did you have any conversation with her?

A. No, I saw an automobile full of people and Patricia and I, we were somewhere on the boardwalk and we said, “Well, let’s go get in,” and we both got in the car.

Q. In other words, you people out in the ranch don’t plan things ahead, just a spur of the moment.

A. No, once in a while it might be a plan.

If the Fountain of the World would ask us to come sing on Friday night, we would keep in mind that on Friday night we most likely should try to get to the Fountain of the World.

That was like a plan.

But now at 5:00 o’clock, you or me or we will do this or that, that never existed.

We just did whatever we did with whoever happened to be around.

Q. On August 9th did Linda Kasabian say, “Let’s go for a ride,” or did she just get in the car first and you guys followed?

A. I don’t know who got in the car first.

Q. What made you get into the automobile?

A. I wanted to go for a ride.

Q. And so—

Okay, someone must have said, “Let’s go for a ride,” then, correct?

A. There was a bunch of people in the car.

Q. Before you got in the automobile?

A. Yes.

Patricia and I climbed in the back seat. But there wasn’t a seat in it, you know, but we got behind the driver’s side.

Q. So, there were three in the front and four in the back?

A. I think there was only six. Three in the front and three in the back.

Q. And I believe you stated that Linda was driving?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, did you or did Sadie take any drugs just before going on that trip?

A. I don’t know if Sadie did or not.

Q. Did you take some drugs?

A. Patricia and I had taken some acid.

Q. That is on August the 9th, the second night?

A. It was before that. I mean, you know, on that—if that is the date—sure.

Q. Okay.

Now, during this automobile trip or ride, did anyone take any drugs or smoke any marijuana?

A. Might have.

Q. You don’t recall?

A. No.

Q. Okay.

Now, when you stopped—I mean, while you were riding around in the automobile, did you see Sadie fall asleep?

A. I didn’t pay any attention to Sadie while we were in the car.

Q. Was she sitting next to you?

A. I don’t know where she was sitting.

Q. Were you in the back with her or was she in the front?

A. I don’t know where she was sitting.

Q. Well, when the cars stopped, when it finally did stop, did you notice Sadie either sleeping or laying down?

A. Like I said, I wasn’t paying attention to what Sadie was doing.

Q. Now, I believe you said Linda went into the house with Tex.

A. Linda left the car with Tex.

Q. Did you see her leave the car?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she say anything when she left the car?

A. “I will be back in a minute,” most likely.

You know, regular conversation.

How much do you pay attention to regular conversation?

Q. Okay.

Now, she went into the house.

You don’t know, then, you can’t remember exact facts, you don’t know whether Linda Kasabian stayed in there a half hour, one hour, or five-minutes; is that correct?

A. She didn’t stay in there any half hour.

Q. Your memory is that good that you can tell us she didn’t stay for more than a half hour or less than a half hour?

A. I would have gotten restless if it would have been that long.

Q. Would you say that she stayed in there for more than ten minutes?

A. Could have.

Q. Ten minutes or more?

A. Could have.

Q. Did you notice whether or not she had a knife when she went into the house, Linda Kasabian?

A. I didn’t notice anyone with weapons that night.

Q. When she came back, did you see her walk back towards the automobile?

A. I didn’t see her walking back. Just presto, Linda was at the window.

Q. In other words, the next time you saw Linda Kasabian she was at the car window?

A. Yes.

Q. Did she say anything?

A. I don’t know her exact words but the gist of it was that Tex was going to stay.

Q. Okay.

Now, did you notice her hands when she came out of the house, whether or not she had blood on her hands or a wallet in her hands?

A. I didn’t pay any attention to her hands.

Q. When she stepped into the automobile, did you see any weapon in her hand or did you see her bring anything into the automobile?

A. No.

Q. You didn’t see a wallet?

A. No.

Q. Now, when Linda Kasabian got into the automobile was Sadie awake at that time or was she drowsy?

A. Mr. Shinn, I don’t know what Sadie was doing. She could have been asleep. I know she wasn’t—she must not have been talking. She was quiet.

Q. Did you say anything to Sadie when you left the automobile?

A. Most likely, knowing how I carry on conversation I said, “See you later,” or something like that.

Q. To all the occupants in the automobile?

A. Most likely.

Some kind of, you know, “Goodbye.”

MR. SHINN: I have nothing further, your Honor.

THE COURT: Any questions?

MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Honor.

CROSS-EXAMINATION

BY MR. KANAREK:

Q. Miss Van Houten, when was it that you first took LSD?

A. My father came up and we had a visit, and he told me it was when I was 15.

Q. And that was long before you ever came to Spahn Ranch; right?

A. Yes.

Q. Before you ever came to the Spahn Ranch, you left home?

A. Yes.

Q. And no one from the Spahn Ranch got you to leave home, right?

A. No.

Q. You left home for what reason?

A. Because I wanted to.

Q. Because you wanted to; right?

A. Yes.

Q. Is it a fair statement that—directing your attention to what you have done, whatever you have done, good or bad, this has been what you want to do since you left home; is that right? Is that a fair statement?

A. They have been my own moves.

Q. Pardon?

A. Everything I have done I have done myself.

Q. Now, directing your attention, then, to the taking of LSD. Did you ever take LSD in the presence of Linda Kasabian?

A. Yes.

Q. On how many occasions?

A. A couple.

Q. And where were you when you took LSD in the presence of Linda Kasabian?

A. At the ranch.

Q. Now, did Linda Kasabian ever discuss Bobby Beausoleil with you? Just a discussion of Bobby Beausoleil?

A. Yes.

Q. When was that?

A. When we were at the ranch.

Q. What was said by you and what was said by her?

A. Different kinds of conversations happened about Bobby, how good looking he was, what a nice man he was.

And then after he got arrested, how could we go about getting him out, that it wasn’t right that he was locked up.

Things like that.

Q. Did she have a discussion with you concerning getting Bobby Beausoleil out of prison at a time when you were present with Patricia Krenwinkel and Sadie?

A. Sure. We had discussions.

Q. Susan Atkins?

A. Yes. We had discussions a lot.

Q. And directing your attention, then, to the words “political piggy.”

You saw those words at the Hinman home; is that correct?

MR. BUGLIOSI: This is a leading question, your Honor.

MR. KANAREK: Well, this is cross-examination, your Honor.

THE COURT: Overruled.

You may answer.

THE WITNESS: I saw some writings on the wall. Later on I found out it was “political piggy.”

I didn’t pay any attention at the time.

BY MR. KANAREK:

Q. I have a series of pictures and I will ask you:

Do you recognize what you see in those pictures?

Could you hold that, Miss Van Houten?

A. Yes.

Q. How is it more convenient? To hold it like that?

A. It doesn’t matter.

Q. Now, you notice this picture in the upper left-hand corner, the one that is marked A?

A. Yes.

Q. Do you recognize that room, that scene?

A. It has been so long since I have seen it, but it looks familiar.

Q. See where it says “Political piggy” written on the wall?

A. Yes, I see it.

Q. Did you see those markings when you were in the Hinman home?

A. I saw Gary laying there.

I didn’t pay much attention to what was on the wall.

Q. Now, directing your attention to the wall, however, did you see markings on the wall?

A. Yes, I saw blood on the wall.

Q. Did you see what appeared to be letters or words written on the wall?

A. Yes.

Q. I am now referring to item A, which is in the upper left-hand corner.

Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Where it is marked A?

A. Yes.

Q. And you recognize that scene as being a portion of the Hinman home?

A. Yes.

Q. Correct?

A. Correct.

Q. All right, now, directing your attention to B, picture B.

You notice at the top of picture B there appears to be some words that are just cut off by the way that picture was taken.

Do you see that?

A. Yes.

Q. Does that picture, B, appear to be a scene that you saw at the Hinman home?

A. Yes.

Q. Directing your attention to picture C, does that appear to be a scene that you saw at the Hinman home?

A. I didn’t pay that much attention, Mr. Kanarek.

Q. Well—

A. You know I looked, I told you many times I spent very little time in this room where this man was.

I’m sure I have seen the house I have seen all of this.

Q. You say you told me many times. As a matter of fact, you have never spoken to me about this before.

A. Okay, okay.

Q. Have you?

(No response.)

Q. Have you ever spoken, discussed these matters with me before in your lifetime?

A. No, no.

Q. When you say you have spoken of these matters before—

A. In this courtroom.

Q. —in this courtroom?

A. Many times. You have heard me say this.

Q. When other people were speaking with you, right?

A. Yes.

Q. Would you briefly look at C, D, E, F, G, and H, and tell us whether you recognize those scenes as being scenes in the Hinman home.

A. It looks familiar.

Q. Could you look at each one briefly?

A. I already did.

Q. And you say that each one of those pictures looks familiar to you?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, directing your attention to Linda Kasabian, did you ever hear Linda Kasabian use the word “pig,” speak and use the word pig?

A. It wasn’t a word that was widely used.

I personally cannot remember her saying that word.

Q. At no time in your—since you have known her do you remember her using the word pig?

A. The only time Linda and I would generally speak would be about Bobby because Linda knew I was with Bobby.

Q. I see.

Now—

(Mr. Keith approaches the witness and takes down the exhibit.)

MR. KANAREK: I am not through with that yet.

MR. KEITH: Excuse me, she just showed some discomfort.

Q. BY MR. KANAREK: Now, Miss Van Houten, directing your attention to this picture of the Volkswagen, could you take that in your hand, please.

Do you recognize that Volkswagen?

A. Yes.

Q. Would you describe or tell us when you first saw that Volkswagen?

A. This is the Volkswagen bus that I drove back from Gary.

Q. From Gary Hinman’s house?

A. Yes.

Q. Is that correct?

A. The only reason I recognize it is because of this bird on the side.

I don’t know what color it was. I had forgotten.

Q. And by the bird on the side you are speaking about the bird that is visible in what is labeled B and D, B as in boy and D as in David, in connection with this exhibit, is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, when you drove the Volkswagen bus, did you drive that bus away from an area that was near Gary Hinman’s house?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, I show you another picture of an automobile and ask you if you recognize that picture.

A. It looks familiar. I did not see it very much.

Q. Well, just—

A. There were two cars at Gary’s when we drove up. One was a small white car.

This could be it.

Q. This could be that small white car?

A. Sure.

Q. Is that right?

Now, directing your attention to Linda Kasabian, did you and Linda have any conversations concerning Bobby Beausoleil after both of you knew that Bobby Beausoleil had been arrested?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, in that connection, would you tell us as best you can exactly the words that Linda said concerning Bobby Beausoleil after he was arrested?

A. I cannot tell you the best way I can because I cannot remember exact words, and I’m not going to play like I can.

Q. All right, then give us the substance of the words that Bobby Beausoleil used when—

A. Bobby Beausoleil didn’t use any.

Q. Pardon me, I’m sorry, that Linda Kasabian used when—

After Bobby Beausoleil was arrested.

A. “This is really a bad situation.

“How can we get him out?

“Well, there’s a lot of different ways we can get him out.”

That kind of conversation, the kind of conversation anybody would hold if anybody was in jail.

Q. And what suggestions, if any, did Linda Kasabian make to get Bobby Beausoleil out of jail?

A. She didn’t come up with any herself. It was a lot of different thoughts combined—a bunch of different thoughts.

Linda did not mastermind or plot any main thing.

Q. Well, at a time when Linda was present did you, Sadie, Patricia and Linda together discuss getting Bobby Beausoleil out of jail?

A. Yes.

Q. All right, then in these discussions, whether Linda Kasabian stated the words or not, what was—what was the method that was to be used to get Bobby Beausoleil out of jail?

A. We hadn’t come to a decisive method in which to get him out.

We had different thoughts.

Q. All right.

Would you state what the different thoughts were that were discussed in the presence of Linda Kasabian?

A. We could raise the bail; we found out later there was no bail.

We could get a good attorney to try to beat the case.

Or we could do copy-cat killings.

Q. And this was discussed in the presence of Linda Kasabian?

A. Sure, Linda Kasabian was there.

Q. All right, and in connection with the matter of copy-cat killings, what were you going to copy?

What was discussed as the example, that which would be copied?

A. I suppose the writing on the wall, the weapons used.

I hadn’t really thought about that.

MR. KANAREK: Now, your Honor, at this time I offer into evidence this item that has been offered for reference for identification, at this time.

THE COURT: What is it?

MR. KANAREK: Pardon?

THE COURT: What is it?

MR. KANAREK: These are pictures, your Honor.

THE COURT: Has it been identified?

MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Honor, it has been identified by reference.

THE COURT: As what?

THE CLERK: P-HH, your Honor.

THE COURT: Is that right, Mr. Kanarek?

MR. KANAREK: I don’t have the exact—P-HH, yes, your Honor, it is offered.

It has been presently for identification. We offer it now into evidence at this time, your Honor, the pictures themselves.

THE COURT: All of the pictures?

MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Honor, just the pictures.

THE COURT: Any objections?

MR. BUGLIOSI: No objection.

THE COURT: It will be received.

MR. KANAREK: Now, I offer, your Honor, at this time into evidence what has been marked for identification as Exhibit No. P-GG as the Volkswagen bus.

I offer that into evidence, just the pictures.

THE COURT: Any objection?

MR. BUGLIOSI: No objection.

THE COURT: It will be received.

MR. BUGLIOSI: No objection.

THE COURT: It will be received.

MR. KANAREK: I offer into evidence the three pictures of the white vehicle—

Well, I don’t believe that this has yet been marked, your Honor, so may it be marked next in order?

THE COURT: P-II for identification.

MR. KANAREK: P-II, your Honor?

THE COURT: Yes.

MR. KANAREK: May I then offer it into evidence and not just for identification?

THE COURT: Any objection?

MR. BUGLIOSI: No objection.

THE COURT: It will be received.

BY MR. KANAREK:

Q. Now, Miss Van Houten, directing your attention then to the time—

What was the duration of time that you—that elapsed between the time that Linda Kasabian first participated in conversations pertaining to how to get Bobby Beausoleil out of jail until the time came about where you ended up in the LaBianca home.

What was that duration of time?

A. You know the dates, I don’t know the dates.

Q. My question is just for your estimate of how many days?

A. I have no idea. From the time Bobby got arrested until they took place, that is how long it was between the conversations.

Q. Can you give us your best estimate of that?

A. No, I cannot.

Q. Do you know how many days it was?

A. I don’t know how many days it was, months, weeks, nothing about it.

I don’t know time.

Q. And would you state, please, about how many such conversations occurred?

A. I couldn’t tell you that either, how many particular situations with Linda Kasabian occurred.

Q. After Bobby Beausoleil was taken until this night?

A. Yeah, I could not tell you.

Q. Now, I have another picture I would like to show you, this is what has been marked People’s 261.

MR. KANAREK: May I approach the witness, your Honor?

THE COURT: You may.

BY MR. KANAREK:

Q. I show you People’s 261, would you tell me—

Have you seen what is pictured in that picture before in your lifetime?

A. I have only seen this picture.

Q. In other words, you have never seen what is pictured here at the Spahn Ranch?

A. Never.

I don’t know anyone who lives in Spahn’s Ranch that was on a trip like that, to write stuff like that.

And I cleaned that trailer many times, and I never saw it.

Q. And when you say “that trailer,” are you referring to the trailer that Juan Flynn lived in?

A. Both trailers.

Q. And when you say both trailers, did Juan Flynn live in more than one trailer?

A. Juan Flynn didn’t even life in a trailer when I was there.

He and Johnny shared a trailer.

Q. By that you mean Johnny Swartz?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, directing your attention to this picture.

When you say you don’t know anyone at the Spahn Ranch that could have been on that kind of a trip, what do you mean by that?

A. The only thing that was ever wrote down in words was when Ouish and I painted the Helter Skelter jug.

We did not go around putting peace signs all over things. I know I didn’t.

And our idea at the ranch was not to make it look like a hippie place. That is like a show, to show somebody you are a hippie.

That wasn’t—at the ranch we were cowboys and cowgirls and whatever you wished to be, but we did not make our houses like freaks, you know, freak walk in movies.

Q. Now, this expression here, “One, two, three, four, five, six, seven, all good children go to heaven.” You have seen that on this picture; right?

A. Yes, I saw it.

Q. Is that part of what you call a trip that you don’t know who participated in? Is that right?

A. That was on a Beatle album, after we had been in the desert and left Spahn’s Ranch, and the only people left at the ranch were cowboys.

Q. Would you consider Juan Flynn to be a cowboy?

A. Sure.

Q. Now, this term helter skelter. You say that there was a nightclub at the Spahn Ranch called Helter Skelter?

A. That is what I called it. Other people may have had different names for it. Maybe they didn’t even have a name for it.

I called it the Helter Skelter Nightclub.

Q. In other words, before this lawsuit ever came into existence—

A. What lawsuit?

Q. The lawsuit that we are in right now before Judge Older here.

A. Yes.

Q. You called that nightclub the Helter Skelter Nightclub; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And to your knowledge, did anyone else call it the Helter Skelter Nightclub?

A. Could, have been. I don’t pay attention to what other people say.

Q. Well, then, directing your attention to this night, the night that you left and ended up at the LaBianca residence, when you got into that car what was your intent? What was your purpose when you got into that car that night?

A. To go for a ride.

Q. And your purpose was to go for a ride with the other people in the car; right?

A. That is what was happening. I don’t know if it was a purpose or not.

Q. And on that occasion, while the car was being driven, before it came to a stop, before it stopped where it did come to a stop near Harold True’s home, what was said in the automobile?

A. Mr. Kanarek, I have stated in this courtroom many times that I don’t remember exact conversation.

Q. Can you give us the substance of any conversation?

A. No.

Half the time when we drive in the city, nobody spoke a word. Everybody was looking, looking as we drove by, looking at the streets, looking at the lights, looking at the buildings.

What is there to talk about?

Q. And when that automobile came to a stop in front of Harold True’s home, or what you—well, let me withdraw that and ask you: Had you ever been to Harold True’s before?

A. No.

Q. In your life?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. When that car was stopped in front of Harold True’s, Linda Kasabian was driving the car; is that correct?

A. Yes.

Q. And she decided to stop the car, as far as you know; is that correct?

A. The car stopped and she was driving.

Q. Did anybody tell her to stop the car there?

A. Not that I know of.

Q. Now, on that night, you were under the influence of LSD; is that correct?

A. I had taken some acid.

Q. How long before you left the Spahn Ranch that night?

A. I don’t know how long. I took it with Patricia in the early afternoon.

Q. I see.

And how much acid did you take—had you taken?

A. I don’t recall exactly.

Usually when I take acid, it comes like in a little tiny saccharin tablet, and you just drop the saccharin tablet.

Q. You took a couple of saccharin tablets?

A. No, I didn’t take a couple. You usually take one.

Q. I see.

Now, what was your state of mind, what was your state of mind, Miss Van Houten, as to how much acid you had taken that night—in the afternoon, before you left?

A. One tablet.

Q. One tablet?

A. Yes.

Q. And was the tablet of a particular brand?

A. I don’t recall.

Q. Was it like what you call White Sunshine or White Lightning?

A. There are different kinds, but Mr. Kanarek, that was over a year and a half ago. I don’t remember what kind I took.

Q. Well, did you classify different acid in different kinds of ways, Miss Van Houten?

A. Usually the smaller the tab, the stronger they are.

Q. Good things come in small packages? Is that the way it works?

A. I suppose so.

Q. Now, did you use the term White Lightning or Sunshine?

A. Those were different names. Purple Haze.

They have got all kinds of different names on the different kinds of acid.

Q. Would you remember as to the name or the type of pill that you took that night?

A. I won’t remember because I’d be guessing.

Q. I see.

Could you guess for us, please?

A. No, I won’t.

Q. Okay.

A. That isn’t right.

Can you guess up here?

You can’t guess up here.

THE COURT: All right. That is enough. Wait for the question.

BY MR. KANAREK:

Q. Now, of course, you have never analyzed any acid, any LSD, or anything like that; right?

A. What do you mean analyze?

Q. Well, you are not a chemist, are you?

A. No, I never did.

Q. Or a pharmacist or a pharmacologist; right?

A. No.

Q. So when you take a tab of acid, you take it at face value, based upon what somebody else tells you, right, as to how strong it is?

A. Acid is acid.

If somebody hands it to you, you take it, and you judge for yourself if it is a good trip or a bad trip.

Q. Have you had bad trips?

A. No.

Q. You never had a bum trip in your life?

A. I don’t know what a bum trip is.

Q. Now, does the term 200 micrograms mean anything to you?

Have you ever heard that kind of an expression associated with one tab of acid?

A. I have heard 500.

Q. You have heard 500 micrograms?

A. Yes.

Q. In your mind, do all tabs of acid have the same potency?

A. No, they don’t, to my mind.

Q. Well, then, from time to time you have taken tabs of acid that, as far as your mind was concerned, were different potencies; is that right?

A. Yes.

Q. Would 500 micrograms of acid be a large dose, as far as you were concerned?

A. They say every tab has that.

I don’t know, Mr. Kanarek. A tab of acid is a tab of acid.

Q. I see.

So, your state of mind is that every time you took a tab of acid, you took about 500 micrograms? Is that what your thinking is? Is that right?

THE COURT: What is the relevance of that, Mr. Kanarek?

MR. KANAREK: Well, if we may approach the bench.

I will explain.

THE COURT: If she has personal knowledge, that is one thing, but if you are asking for speculation, that is something else.

MR. KANAREK: Well, on the street, so to speak, among the people, among the people who take acid, is there a general reputation associated with the potency of a tab of acid?

Do you people generally say that a tab of acid contains 500 micrograms of actual acid?

MR. KEITH: I object to the question.

THE COURT: It is ambiguous.

MR. KANAREK: May we approach the bench?

THE COURT: It is also irrelevant.

MR. KANAREK: May we approach the bench, your Honor?

THE COURT: Ask your next question.

MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, I have another reason for approaching the bench, too.

THE COURT: Very well.

(Whereupon, all counsel approach the bench and the following proceedings occur at the bench outside the hearing of the jury:)

THE COURT: Yes?

MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Honor.

Out of courtesy to Judge Choate, Judge Choate asked that we return to his courtroom.

So, although I believe what we are returning for, there is no jurisdiction or any legal basis for it, out of courtesy to him, he is a Superior Court Judge, I ask that we adjourn at this time.

He has asked that I return.

THE COURT: I haven’t the faintest idea what you are talking about, Mr. Kanarek. Let’s get to the point.

Do you have an appearance now in Judge Choate’s court? Is that what you are saying?

MR. KANAREK: Yes, your Honor.

THE COURT: What kind of an appearance? For what?

I don’t know anything about it.

MR. KANAREK: Your Honor, it has to do in connection with the Shay-Hinman matter.

THE COURT: What about it? What is the nature of the appearance?

MR. KANAREK: The nature of the appearance has to do with my representing Mr. Manson.

THE COURT: Are you telling me that there is a matter on his calendar now?

MR. KANAREK: He set it.

THE COURT: Requiring your presence?

MR. KANAREK: Yes. He set it.

THE COURT: In Department 106?

MR. KANAREK: Yes.

MR. KAY: It is my understanding that Judge Choate said that he was going to decide at 4:00 o’clock whether or not he would allow Mr. Kanarek to represent Mr. Manson.

MR. BUGLIOSI: How could he arbitrarily set it at 4:00 o’clock when we are in trial here and he hasn’t even contacted Judge Older?

THE COURT: I don’t know anything about it.

MR. SHINN: I was there and he did order us to come back at 4:00 o’clock.

THE COURT: We will go until 4:15 and then you can go over there.

I don’t know anything about it.

MR. KAY: One point.

I noticed in the past 20 minutes that Mr. Manson evidently has some thongs that are exhibits in the case in front of him and he appears to be trying to mix them up.

I tried to keep a close eye on him.

THE COURT: I don’t want him handling the exhibits.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Right.

I told Mr. Darrow about it.

MR. KAY: They are in front of him.

MR. BUGLIOSI: Gene. Come up here, please.

THE COURT: I don’t want the defendants handling any exhibit.

Take them away from him.

MR. FITZGERALD: I will get them.

THE COURT: We will go until 4:15.

(Whereupon, all counsel return to their respective places at counsel table and the following proceedings occur in open court within the presence and hearing of the jury:)

MR. KEITH: Excuse me a moment, your Honor.

(Mr. Keith approaches the witness and they confer.)

Q. BY MR. KANAREK: Now, Miss Van Houten, would you say that trying to describe what occurs in your mind and what you think about, what happens when you are under acid, is sort of like trying to describe music?

Would you say that is a—

A. I beg your pardon? What about music?

Q. Well, if you listen to a record, a musical records—right?

A. Yes.

Q. You know whether it pleases you or not, you know whether it makes you feel—

A. Acid is very pleasing.

Q. Right.

But my question is this: There are some things that you just can’t describe, words can’t describe them; right? Like if you listen to a symphony, if you listen to one of Beethoven’s symphonies, you may say, “I like it,” or “I don’t like it,” but trying to describe it with words is almost impossible.

Is that a fair statement?

A. I guess so.

Q. I mean, any kind of music.

Do you like symphony?

A. Sure.

Q. Do you dig symphony?

A. Yes.

Q. Now, if I can ask you to describe in words what you hear in a symphony, could you do it if I asked you that?

I do ask you. Would you describe Beethoven’s Ninth in words?

A. You would have to sing it for me, Mr. Kanarek. I don’t know it.

Q. I see.

Okay.

Well, is it a fair statement, then—let’s take what you think and what you see and what you hear when you are on acid.

It is impossible to describe in words; is that a fair statement?

MR. BUGLIOSI: Irrelevant.

MR. KANAREK: I think it is most relevant, your Honor, because the state of mind of—

THE COURT: Overruled.

That will be enough, Mr. Kanarek.

You may answer.

THE WITNESS: Are you telling me it is impossible to do?

MR. KANAREK: No. In this courtroom, what we are doing is we are asking questions, Miss Van Houten.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

MR. KANAREK: And I hope by nothing that I am saying am I telling you anything.

My purpose is merely to ask questions of you and have you give the answers.

THE WITNESS: Okay.

BY MR. KANAREK:

Q. Now, directing your attention to what was going on in your mind from the time you took acid that afternoon on, until the time you say you came back to the ranch.

You were under acid, you say; right?

A. Yes.

Q. Can you tell us what you saw in your mind’s eye during that period of time?

Do you know what I mean by “mind’s eye”?

A. I know what you mean.

I already gave my testimony as to what I saw and what I remember.

Q. Well—

A. What do you want?

Q. You have testified as to what you saw that was outside of your body. In other words, things that you saw. You went in and you saw the LaBiancas.

A. On acid you are what you look at.

Q. Well, when you take acid, at times, if you shut your eyes—let’s say your eyes are not open—there is no noise around you. You still see and hear various things in your mind.

Is that a fair statement?

A. I guess so.

Q. All right.

I am asking right now not what you observed external to your body.

A. I am telling you, on acid I am what I look at.

I am not thinking anything, and if my eyes are shut, then I am the darkness behind my eyes. Then I am not what I look at.

If that makes any sense?

I can’t try to rap it down to try to make it make sense.

Q. Well, when you are on acid and your eyes are shut, is your mind a complete blank or do you see colors do you see cubes?

A. There are very pretty patterns behind my closed eyes, there are very pretty things behind them.

Q. At a time when you are just sitting still and actually there is no noise in the room, you see pretty patterns; is that right?

A. Mr. Kanarek, it is ridiculous to try to discuss it. I cannot explain it to you.

Q. So, it is a fair statement that as far as describing the effect of acid on your mind, let’s say, when your eyes are closed, you just can’t do it, it is impossible; is that right?

A. I could with another person that has taken acid.

Q. And were you able, that night, to communicate with Linda Kasabian that night when you were driving from the Spahn Ranch to the LaBiancas, were you able to communicate with her?

A. We were communicating.

Q. How were you communicating?

A. We were on the same thought, the same—when you take acid, you become to be of the same thought in the one mind with the group of people.

And then again, there is what you call a contact high, where like if Patricia and I were on acid and no one else in the car had even taken it, they would feel it.

Acid is that way. I have had people walk up to me, and I will just say, “You are really loaded on acid.” And they will go, “Oh, yes.”

So you become of one thought, whenever there is someone on acid.

It is a strange thing, I don’t know really where it comes from, but it happens.

We were communicating. I don’t know if we were talking words. We were all running on the same thought.

Just not me and Linda, me and Tex, me and Clem, me and Sadie, me and Patricia, me and me. All of us.

Q. And then you and Linda were on the same thought, right?

A. I believe we were, but you would have to ask Linda.

Q. But you and she, as far as your state of mind is concerned, were in the same—were part of the same thought that night?

A. You are part of the same thought too. Everybody is.

Q. When you got out of the car that night, where was Linda? I am speaking in front of the LaBianca home.

A. I don’t know if she also got in the car by then or if she was still standing outside of the car. She was near the car.

Q. And directing your attention to Linda Kasabian, did you see Linda Kasabian at any particular window at the LaBianca home?

Did you see Linda Kasabian at any window—

A. The car window. I never saw her near the LaBianca home. I saw her leave the car and come back.

Now, I did not see her around the house itself.

Q. You did not see Linda in the house?

A. No.

Q. You yourself?

A. No, I did not.

Q. And when she left the car, how long was she gone?

A. I don’t know the exact time.

Q. She left the car, she left with Tex?

A. Are you asking me?

Q. Yes.

A. Yes.

Q. She and Tex left the car, right?

A. Yes.

Q. And this is after they parked the—after they parked the car in front of the Harold True home, right?

A. We were parked in front of the home in which I went into.

THE COURT: Mr. Kanarek, we will have to adjourn a few minutes early.

Ladies and gentlemen, do not converse with anyone or form or express any opinion regarding penalty until that issue is finally submitted to you.

The court will adjourn until 9:45 tomorrow morning.

(Whereupon an adjournment was taken.)

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